Episode 3 - Discussing the Importance of data in HR with Alexa Grellet

Mark McBride-Wright: 0:10

I am your host, Mark McBride-Wright, Founder and Managing Director of EqualEngineers. And I believe that every engineer has a story to tell. The EqualEngineers podcast uncovers the diversity story behind leading engineers and those working with the profession, championing change. Hear from leaders, academics, entrepreneurs, and agents of change, truly transforming the understanding of who engineers are and what engineers do. Alexa Grellet is an experienced commercial leader who has worked in tech her entire career, from enterprises to scaling startups all over the world. She's passionate about using Tech for Good and has a talent for building strong, inclusive cultures. She's passionate about social justice and believes that improving the way we employ people is one of the most powerful ways to uplift society. Alexa, Hi, how are you?

Alexa Grellet: 1:27

Hi, I'm delighted to be here. I'm doing great. How are you?

Mark McBride-Wright: 1:31

I'm good. Thanks, I realised I never confirmed my pronunciation of your surname. Did I say that correctly?

Alexa Grellet: 1:37

And yet, you nailed it. That was perfect. Yes, I'm not gonna force you to do the full French version of that. Just like that was great.

Mark McBride-Wright: 1:47

Oh, well, I do I do speak French. So I probably should have picked up on my issue. So we got chatting a few weeks ago with a bit of work that EqualEngineers was doing looking at small medium enterprises and, you know, potential platforms. And we just had a really great chat, really, really great chat when we reached out to HR data hub. So I'm so pleased that you accepted the invitation to join our to join our podcast today to find a bit about a bit about yourself, as a female founding CEO, and also a bit around what the what the platform is doing. And, you know, perhaps some of our listeners can, might be interested to come and take a look, get a demo and get involved. And I like with my podcasts to get to know the people get to know the diversity story. So we're going to talk a little bit about you little bit about your history, how you got to where you're at, you know a bit about your present and what you're working on, or no. So if we we start with the at the beginning, we call back. Where did you grow up? What was the young Alexa like?

Alexa Grellet: 2:57

Well, restless, I would have to say is probably the best qualifier. I come from a tiny, tiny village in the south of France. Imagine the ultimate postcard of what do you think southern France is like with vineyards everywhere, people wearing berets, and like, munching on the Get on the side of the road, while just observing what's going on. That's exactly where I grew up. And I adore it, the bottom of my heart, but it is a very uniform culture. And I was lucky that my mom, my mom is English and my dad is French. So I already had a bit of a glimpse of what internationality looks like. But definitely read restless. Definitely a kid that was completely focused on what was going on in the outside world. And that's just followed me my entire life even until today just always a yearning to understand what other people living like what is it like for them? I think really early on in in my family, my grandparents were the founders of Amnesty International in our hometown. And so they were really involved in always having talks and people around and you know, refugees from here and there and I was here you know, helping people out and I think that that sort of like fueled my desire to go everywhere and meet everyone and just understand what the scope of life can be beyond the vineyards of southern France I guess.

Mark McBride-Wright: 4:28

You say that with such not to stay in but sort of you know that that was your frame of reference. That was your where you grew up if I just can share with you my frame of reference. I grew up in Scotland, Scotland, we never went on any big fancy family holidays with sunshine anywhere and Scotland doesn't get a lot of sunshine. So my first trip was to the south of France on a school trip with my my twin Tara to joli village. You sir last off down in the south near Avignon. And I was just captivated. I loved it. I just the the lifestyle just totally laid back it was the sunshine, how welcoming everyone was. And so it's it just shows you that even when you grew up in a sort of what I saw as a paradise frame of reference, I guess there's always that yearning inside that. There must be more, there must be more out there and more, more to discover more to see.

Alexa Grellet: 5:32

Yeah, I guess it depends on who you are, right. Because like, the large majority of people that I grew up with, still live there. And they're so happy there. And they adore it as if they were, you know, sort of like, English tourists on holiday. You know, we had those eyes, like I do everything about here. And I, I love that. And there's definitely a part of me that is like that. Yeah. And there's a really big other part that loves coming back to that and knowing that this is always there. But understanding that with that comfort, there are also limitations. And, and I guess, like pushing beyond that, from a very early age, I think has been definitely like a bit of a pattern and my personality, but also just my my life journey. But it is a paradise. And it's wonderful. And it's true that we're very lucky to me it did, I felt like okay, well, I shouldn't just be just give up then on the rest, just like enjoy this here.

Mark McBride-Wright: 6:33

And it's it sounded like you had such a rich introduction to what was happening beyond those vineyards by your grandparents introducing Amnesty International. And you, you alluded there that it made you then go and see the world. So what have you done some extensive travelling?

Alexa Grellet: 6:50

Yes, yes. And I think I guess like I haven't necessarily done travelling a search in terms of like, let's take my backpack and go across some a bunch of countries for a period of time. I've just moved places and a lot of different places. Because that's, that's like the dynamic that really interests me is like, how do you get to know a place from within and so as soon as I finished high school, I was 17, I graduated my baccalaureate, and I'm moved to Ecuador at 17. And, you know, back in 2006, was a very different time than now. So there was no smartphones. There was no like, you know, everybody at their house has a computer like, yeah, that wasn't the case at all. And so I was really, like, thrown up on the other side of the world and sort of lived there for a year. Then, throughout the rest, you know, my life is up there. Yes, I've lived lots of different places, but intentionally. So after Ecuador, I came back I studied in the UK, then I left and I went to live in Brazil for a bit. And every time, you know, really sort of like coming at it from like, can I integrate, and there are always going to be limits to like how much you can integrate, especially as a white person in the place where the majority of people are non white, this, there's always going to be that barrier that yeah, okay. You're just a visitor. Yeah, you don't actually live here. But as far as that I really pushed as close as I could for that barrier. And then I lived in America for a bit a bunch of times, and, and then in New Zealand for a period of time as well. So quite quite a few different places. And yeah, I think it's to the surprise of my family I now live in Europe. But it's been Yeah. And I think that's been something that's impacted me a lot and my vision of the world and what I think especially when we talk about diversity and inclusion, and what does that mean, and what does work lives look like elsewhere. Yeah,

Mark McBride-Wright: 8:51

It sounds like you've really then integrated through a non linear pass, like your passion for experience in new cultures with where you are, or how you are has been the sort of storyline to your career so far. Have you been on a nonlinear trajectory? Or have you been on a linear trajectory, and you've just built up where you've been located around that?

Alexa Grellet: 9:14

I think you could kind of see it in a linear way in this sense that since I started working, I've always worked in tech, my entire career, my first job was in tech. And then I just kept going, until today, when I run a tech startup, it's more than everywhere that I went, it was just the interesting opportunities were in that field so young, so I just made it around that and also, especially when you move across the world, and you know, there's always visa issues and like, that's the unglamorous side of saying I've lived there, and lots of places, it means I spend 1000s of pounds in visa procedures everywhere. And, and it's it's much more helpful to do that, you know, Literally like logistically, if you're staying within your sort of like your carrier path, because then you can build on that experience, and you can justify why I see, you know, you know, they should hire you and therefore, give you a visa all sorts of things. Yeah. But I've sort of ended up being able to make it work for me, every time getting closer and closer to what was interesting to me, which was putting humanity at the centre of technology. And I first started in like something that was completely unrelated application performance management, you know, how speedy can websites be? And Little violets going into sort of like tech adoptions for small businesses, then, how do we make, you know, human centred experiences through design? And now how can we use data to bring out the patterns and how humans are treated in the workplace? So I think eventually, I'm getting closer to what really feels like something that something that really fits with me.

Mark McBride-Wright: 11:03

Yeah, I love that. I love that alignment with your legacy almost store where you're devoting your energies, and you'll have impacted people along the way achieving them, I imagine those communities that you became part of, especially in non English speaking countries, you know, to go to Ecuador at 17. That's, that that must have been, or sorry, non French speaking countries. So something different to your mother tongue? How did you find that linguistically?

Alexa Grellet: 11:37

Um, well, so first of all, I definitely think that I, I people impacted me way more than I impacted them. Probably, I definitely like to think that at least, and I feel so thankful for, you know, everything that I've sort of picked up and the people that help you in in places where you're vulnerable. And most of the time, you're alone, half the time, you don't even know how to speak properly. But I'm severely dyslexic. Right? And I say that with the utmost pride, it's such a wonderful thing to be because I can understand things in a way that people don't see sometimes. But it also is a drawback in some areas. So for example, when you learn a language, I am not very good at learning. In formalised environment, or frankly, doing anything in formalised environments. That doesn't really sit well with me. But if you put me in a place where I'm on my own, and I, and no one speaks my language, I can probably pick it up in a matter of weeks, because my brain works like that. And so, to me, I think like moving different places has been definitely an advantage, purposefully trying to put myself in a situation where there was no safety net in terms of is there going to be another English or French speaking person that can help me out? No, you just have to make mistakes. You just have to connect with people one way or another through so many different other ways than just language, and interest, like create those bonds and eventually learn from that and be super observant. And really freakin humbled. Because it's a it's a it's a tough and lonely sort of journey. Sometimes until you can speak it's difficult. That worked for me, and I'm most glad that I've haven't lost any of the languages that I've learned. And that's, that's been quite good.

Mark McBride-Wright: 13:28

Which languages have you learnt then? What's your repertoire?

Alexa Grellet: 13:31

Just Spanish and Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese? Those are the two English and French

Mark McBride-Wright: 13:37

Oh, just just just that then?

Alexa Grellet: 13:41

No, no, no, but you know what I mean, is like, I'm not, I'm not very good at bragging. Because also, you know, one thing that I've realised is that actually, it's much more prevalent for people to speak multiple languages than not. And you know, what, one thing that's really impacted me over time, is that we really glorify Western Europeans or English speakers or French speakers for learning a second language like, Oh, my God is as if you, you know, you solve the world's biggest problems. But actually, you go to any countries in, in Africa, and the average person's needs at least two or three languages, right? And, you know, so this is the actually the majority of the world speaks more than one language. And I think it's a really interesting thing to reframe, because you will know like, often and we see that often in the workplace, you know, you're like, wow, you know, if you speak another language, like wow, if you're a French or an English person, but actually if you take a South African, and they speak three languages, it's not it's unvalidated in the same way or with the same, you know, sort of energy and I find that just just really disrespectful. So I think that's why I don't want I don't like saying oh my god, wow. Like you or the average North African person speaks at least French and Arabic and probably another language wherever they learnt in school. So it's important to replace the merits there as well.

Mark McBride-Wright: 15:13

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely just shows you the lens through which we evaluate things, the sort of pecking order of privilege. So during everything that you've done, then what pastimes have you enjoyed, you know, what keeps you busy outside of work?

Alexa Grellet: 15:27

And so, I think one of the things that has been really important to me, always and since really young is to be just be part of a community where women support women, that's been really just, that's been important to me, because I think, you know, just quite marked by the fact that very often, I was the only woman that in a situation not that I only want to support women, but that's been a thing in my life. So I think I'm a community manager for, for a community of women that sort of like travel all around the world, and often alone, and, and so we have this online community. And so I'm a community manager there. And I've, so we organise events for women to meet and just like, help them recreate this community, wherever they may be, and sort of model and realise the fact that women can be travelling alone or changing their life and moving somewhere alone, or so that's, that's been like a big thing in my life, for the last few years. And so I do that for like, I guess, a sense of community. And for mental health. I'm a boxer. And so that's been like a big Yeah, big thing and a big part of how to stay sane. When you work. A high pressure job when you're trying to handle sort of, like, all the different things in life, I think boxing has been really helpful to me. Yeah, it helps me quiet my mind and just focus on the moment. And then yeah, that's, I really enjoy that.

Mark McBride-Wright: 17:04

I love I love the idea of helping quiet the mind. I can, I can empathise with, with that feeling of just having a million thoughts in your brain, and it just never quite gone down. You know, and so having that physical release that must come with boxing as well. And but also the soloists if you're practising on your own.

Alexa Grellet: 17:27

Mostly yeah, I mean, you, you and your own, because at the end of the day, it's you against you. So you know, the boxing is all in the mind. And so, you know, obviously, there's someone in front of you that someone that's to be aware of them, and in what sort of like openings you're giving them to essentially hurt you, but is the most real connection between, I need to, I need to be completely out one with myself, because otherwise, there's danger. And I'm not necessarily saying this is a metaphor for life, because I don't want people to make this like danger everywhere. But it is something quite beautiful to be just completely in sync with how you're moving, how you breathing, how the, you know, the weight of your body is shifting, and just be aware of that. And yeah, it's good cardio to so thank you all in one,

Mark McBride-Wright: 18:22

Linking that up with your community interest with helping support women who travel maybe travelling alone. What are your thoughts on it? Is that? Is that something? And maybe this comes through with the box? And is that something that plays on the mind of women more than men?

Alexa Grellet: 18:40

You mean, safety? Yeah. And feeling oh, another man. So I wouldn't be able to tell you if that's something that men think about a lot. But I can definitely tell you that all the women that I've met in my entire life have on multiple occasion, you know, walked with keys between their fingers, just in case someone sort of like came up to them at night or during the day or frankly, at any time. So I think there's definitely a different element of sort of like awareness around your safety that you have as a woman because you're more of a target. And that's not just women, any group that has been historically discriminated against, or that's perceived or built up in society as being just more vulnerable. Yeah. You know that the members of the LGBTQ plus community are completely at risk of that as well and feel it too. And so I think I don't know if that's something that necessarily people would use as a way to defend themselves because in the moment, in a moment of assault, too often just freeze up more than remember all your left hooks and right folks combinations. Yeah. But I think it's just building yourself up and building your sense Have confidence because you're doing something that you didn't think you could do. Yeah, I think it's helpful for that. And if and if in a moment of distress that can help you in one way or another, then that's probably something that would be attractive to people that feel like they need to be a bit more confident and a bit more safe.

Mark McBride-Wright: 20:17

Absolutely. No, I can, I can. My, I guess my male privilege, the privilege I have of being a man. It only came to light recently really consciously about that privilege with regard to safety at nighttime. And it was in response to the murder of Sarah Everardo in London, by a metropolitan police officer that took four women to stand up and talk about how they feel in public spaces that night walking home alone, you know, conversations around the dinner table, women in people's lives starting to say, Yeah, I do that all the time. Or yeah, I feel like that when I walk down the shops, or no, I will purposely cross the roads and, you know, not travel a certain route. I think a lot of aha moments happened in that moment in time for, for men, and me included as a diversity and inclusion practitioner, you know, it got me thinking, if I get my keys and go out at night, to move the car, or to go down the garage to get some milk, I don't even question whether or not is safe or not for me to do so it doesn't, it hasn't even crossed my mind. But it has started crossing my mind now that for some people it isn't, or that this is a privilege that I have to just go out with that lacklustre thought, you know that something might not happen, or might or might not happen.

Alexa Grellet: 21:40

And even more like I think, you know, a place that we think about that even less is the workplace, every single woman, or it's not just women, but this happens so often that you you're like, Okay, I'm going to go to a work event. And I just need to be careful, because some people get weird. And I just need to be on guard because I need to keep an eye out for how do I handle a situation at work? Where I can just whip out my keys between my knuckles. And someone? How do I how do I handle that? And that have that is a conversation that I think still needs to happen? Yes. Because you you feel awkward? How do you bring it up? Who would you bring it up to? You know, especially if you're in this middle ground where women always sell themselves? Yeah, but nothing actually happens. Or maybe, you know, and it's just like, that breeds insecurity? Because then, you know, it's just yeah, I think that's that's the one of the next frontiers, I think, for that conversation is not just by a stranger, you know, the large majority of attacks or uncomfortable or uncomfortable moments or things like that, of any is come from people that you know, yeah, and that's what makes it worse.

Mark McBride-Wright: 22:58

And it's that gradual normalisation of inappropriate behaviour that creates a melting pot of things just been allowed to happen or grad, there's a gradual escalation in that normalisation until it, then all comes crashing down, and something happens. And then you start looking retrospectively as an outsider and think, why weren't those cues picked up? By that? Yeah, it was allowed to get that far. Why did the individual feel like we had a voice to, you know, call out? Absolutely. So what have been some of the key experiences then that have shaped who you are?

Alexa Grellet: 23:42

Um, so I think, definitely, experiencing just life in a completely different context, over and over again, that's really helped me completely reframe what normal looks like, what a normal societal dynamic looks like, and what a normal work dynamics looks like. And just try to sort of like gradually move away from how do I adapt to the situation to eventually be like, Well, who am I? And how can that and how can that actually be it wherever I am, right? Not just instead of like melting in a situation or in a country, because that's what's done there. But just saying, Okay, I'm gonna understand what's going on. But I don't necessarily need to completely adapt, and to completely adopt these codes that are not necessarily mine, but just be enriched by, you know, proximity to that experience, and then say, okay, well, there are things that I liked about that. And there are things that I would never do if I was in here. And so progressively, this becomes sort of like starts putting together the puzzle of who you are. Yeah. And for myself, that's definitely been the case in terms of, you know, sort of like, behaviour at work leadership in the workplace, and norms around how all this gets codified and just understood by a group that works together. That's been really, really interesting. And especially in situations where I was not a leader at all, and I was, you know, just completely like a frontline frontline worker, and, you know, trying to sort of like figure my way through. And in a place where I was a leader, and you know, I have a team and that are looking up to me for these codes, and how do I adapt those? So? Yeah, definitely, definitely, I would say those would be big markers and who I am today,

Mark McBride-Wright: 25:43

I love that. I love that I love that like experience in life in a different context over and over again, to help cherry pick the elements that you got out of that, that you can adopt as your life principles, and helping your continuing development.

Alexa Grellet: 26:00

Especially because when you when you get into a context, and people are just saying, well, that's just what that's just how it is, you know, you were able, because you've had that experience, you're like, Well, no, not necessarily, you can actually take a step back. And yeah, you might think that because this is your only experienced cultural experience of our workplace, but actually, it doesn't need to be like this. It's not the only way that it's done. Yeah, it's actually completely fine to consider an alternative, not necessarily to do an alternative, but just not take things for granted. That's been really helpful. And I think that I try to keep that in everything that I do, even outside of my work life, just challenge if I'm being complacent and doing that, because that's just how it done. And because, you know, there's an intentionality there because that's what I feel like I want to do is the right thing to do.

Mark McBride-Wright: 26:53

And so I guess that leads about then the next piece, then around the chapter, your journey that you're in right now professionally, and what you just mentioned, must have helped when speaking to clients and scoping and development, your your co founder of HR Data Hub. So can you tell us a bit more about the company and about the platform and what you do?

Alexa Grellet: 27:15

Sure. So HR Data Hub is a HR intelligence platform. And it works by gathering data from lots of different organisations all across the UK for the time being, hopefully very soon, globally, and analyses all that data and puts it in the platform to empower HR professionals to get the insights they need themselves. So it's really a journey to democratise access to information for HR professionals. You know, when you look at the world of HR, often people think everybody wants to be led by data, like a lot of people talk about data, but it's actually getting access to meaningful information, actionable information, it's actually really, really hard. And it's still like, what it was seamless. It was 20 years ago. Yeah. Whereas you see other functions like marketing, like finance has significantly advanced I mean, it takes you 30 minute Google search to find comparative information about how your marketing is doing versus other companies, but for HR, really, really hard and yet, he chose single handedly has the most impact on the life of people. Yeah, it's it more than marketing, definitely more than finance as well. So the fact that there's not a lot of agility in getting the right information to the right thing at the right time, especially as the ecosystem of the workplace is changing, that's really striking. And my co founder, David knows that better than anyone, because he spent 15 years at the head of, you know, HR and reward teams at some of the UK's biggest groups. So he was in that position saying, Well, I'm actually really trying to understand if I can be more competitive here by changing this. But it'll cost me six months of work with a consultancy and 100,000 pounds to do that evaluation. So maybe I should just feel like, let's just give it a go. And hopefully, it'll work. And yeah, so the, the idea is to really take a step back from this and say, Okay, let's, surely there's a there's a, there's a way that we can bring smart technology in this. And there's a way to make sure that we can get the community together sharing information that they have in a way that's confidential, and that's safe, so that we can all get value out of it, you know, so I came into HR Data Hub with the experience of scaling up a tech startup with the experience of really working in human centred design, to infuse this work that we're undertaking and then we're building to infuse it with like, humanity in the tech. So that it just like we really do what we preach and we also obviously, apply these principles internally. And the company is now three years old. I joined at the start of the year, and it's in the last 12 months, it's undertaken, just like undergone a complete transformation from being really starting to get to grips with what it is we're actually doing to now being like a full fledged intelligence platform with over 100 paying customers that are some of the UK's biggest companies, we feel like, the the mission of the organisation is, really, people are latching onto it. Because they don't want to have blind spots. They don't want to do good field decisions. They, when they say, yeah, I want to be data lead, they actually mean it. So there, they are actually finding the most efficient way to get access to meaningful information and to connect back towards action.

Mark McBride-Wright: 30:54

I think it is great. And I'm really excited about your new products, the DNI index that's coming out that you've recently gone live with publicly. One of the areas that I'm interested to know a bit more about is the sort of darker side of HR analytics that we start off alluded to in the intro when talking about experiences of women in the workplace, and what have you. And it strikes me that organisations unconsciously within certain departments might not realise how much they're spending on out of court settlements, on cases, employment law cases, that link to bullying and harassment, and discrimination. And so there's a movement in the UK right now to make non disclosure agreements in the wake of discrimination law unenforceable, so therefore, we can actually start to see the true dark side, let's say to some company's corporate cultures. So is, is there a way that your platform was going to try and help triangulate that spend that reporting and our companies positively embracing it?

Alexa Grellet: 32:09

So I love that question. And it's obviously a very, very important factor, you can't just look at the data that is nice and happy, you have to look when you look at data. And that's what I love about it. And that's what is so motivating and refreshing is because you have data, and especially objective data, strips out all the subjectivity, all the statements, you know, all of this, like all of the fluff and say, okay, but concretely, what is happening. And one of the beauties of HR data hub is, is we look at data about everything. So part of the standard submission of data is having to say, how many court cases you have, how much were the settlements for we have all this information in the platform. And the reason why organisations are happy to share that information with us, is because it's completely anonymized, they can never be identified. And it's a very important principle at the heart of the platform, because you don't want to be outed for performance that you're trying to correct. Yeah, we're not here to like bash people like this is this is not a destructive energy that we're putting out into the world. It's a constructive one is to say, okay, clearly, if you're out here looking at data that you want to make things better, and you want to see if it's normal for you to be spending, you know, 500,000 pounds a year, let's say on settlements, these are normal is it like what everybody's going through is that kind of a new problem. And the fact that there's this confidentiality built into the platform, it allows you to see an aggregated amount for a certain sector, or a certain group of companies that you can never identify organisations individually. So it makes companies feel safer about sharing that, because if they struggle with that, and that's something they want to address, having that data will be great. And the fact that they share it, others will share it. And it's just like, that's the whole principle is just like, letting go in a completely safe environment so that you can get so much out. And we definitely want to be working and supporting these campaigns, to make sure that this is a conversation that impact but that is backed by facts. And that is that really leads towards just more safety in the workplace and just action. Frankly,

Mark McBride-Wright: 34:30

I can only imagine the number of onboarding calls or sales calls you need to do to pitch your product to really sceptical legal teams, or general counsel. I mean, now that you're getting more brands on hopefully that's helping ease that process, and you're getting a pendulum and the other way where people want to be part of it. But in the early days, it must have been How did you get it early and

Alexa Grellet: 34:57

Well, I mean, it's a chicken and egg thing. No one wants to give data unless they can get insights out, and you can't get insights out until you get the data. So the first couple of years will pretty rough. Thankfully, my co founder, David, because he's been in that in that field for so long, he's been talking about data in the workplace for so long, people really trust him. And they know that, you know, what we're doing is safe. And we give everybody a free trials of them, they can see that, well, you know, we have lots of big companies in there, you can't get anything on them, you know, from the data that you're seeing. So it will be the same for you. And over time, we're building trust about what to do with data and, and how they should be get on board. And you know, what's remarkable about this is that this is very, very similar to the journey that organisations themselves have to take with their own employees so that they can share it. So the whole thing is about trust. If people trust that you're not going to do something to compromise them, we're not going to use it against them, then they want to share because they think that this will make the situation better. And it's the same with our customers. And it's the same organisations and their own employees. So we've sort of applied to the market, the very same sort of like, journey, early steps that we advocate to our customers, to say, this is really what you need to think about. And we know that because we've had to do this. Yeah...

Mark McBride-Wright: 36:27

No, I hadn't thought of it in that way. Actually, I can. And I think that makes complete sense, you know, the fact that you're going to have because one of the biggest things and data collection, common pushback we get when we do some, you know consulting exercises is the starting point is just demystifying the perception that you cannot collect certain demographic data. And especially, it seems to be when it comes to sexual orientation. For other strands, there's a sort of general understanding or implicit understanding as to why it might be permissible, but certainly within UK law, it is permissible to ask questions around gender identity, sexual orientation disability have nonvisible provided you provide the prefer not to say option and don't make it a legal requirement to complete it, you can collect that there's so much energy that's wasted, and just get in commission and teams to see that. And so I was really excited when you showed me or when I saw elements of the platform that that you do have all those, your future proofed almost the platform for a gradual full application of the Equality Act o'clock across pay gap reporting over the next decade, that you are asking those questions.

Alexa Grellet: 37:50

Absolutely. And obviously, we understand that the conversation is never a finite one, like how we talk about gender, how we could talk about sexual orientation today will not be the same in you know, 10 years, and that's okay. So we have to start with what we have now. And really paved the way for where we want to go. And that's something that we hear all the time from organisations. Yeah, but it's gonna be really hard. Because what, you know, what do we ask for when we asked about gender? How many classifications and less than this? And I feel like there's so much more time and energy spent in discussing? Yeah, what will be the perfect thing? And what can we do rather than saying, Okay, let's just focus on why would people want to tell us that? First of all, if a whatever classification like what why, what is it in for them? Tell us this? What is what do we what are we trying to get? Is it something that will help us and something that will have them? And what is the first place we can start? And then let's build from there, if people trusted you once to give you data, and then you did something really positive with it? And guess what, if you come back and you ask for more clarity, or more specifications, and deeper, they'll give you more information next time. And and I think that there's really this, this block, it's like, you see there's a mountain instead of seeing like, just a little, little part of the Hayley Yeah, taking it bit by bit. It's like, we need to get all the data once. And it's just like, well, first of all, that's not how it stands, like it takes on average organisations, you know, a good couple of years, to get, you know, to ramp up their disclosure rate, because all of this is linked to your culture. And so if you isolate these conversations from one another, you're going to think that, oh, well, as soon as you've sorted what classifications you want, then it's just a matter of rolling out the survey and you'll get the data well, no, no, no, no, it's like a cultural excise first. You know, you need to you need to focus on that. And then ask whatever you want to ask even if it's not perfect, even if it's not everything, but just make one step makes one step in the right direction, you at least you'll be closer.

Mark McBride-Wright: 40:04

You alluded to something there that might be a barrier, as in companies have like systems really collect this data? What What, in your experience? Are the big HR information system providers doing to make this achievable? Is it achievable at scale? Or is it to piecemeal, right? Know that it makes it really difficult to get the acceleration that we need?

Alexa Grellet: 40:31

So we've actually, we run flash surveys from time to time to get the pulse of like, what the HR professionals are thinking or dealing with right now. And that's actually one of the questions that we asked, like six months ago, how do you collect? How many classifications Do you collect on ethnicity? I think it was, and how do you collect it? And like, a majority of organisations are saying, wherever my HR system allows me to do, yeah, so they're very much being like, guided by what's available in Workday, or whatever. And depending on the size of the organisation, they will have workarounds, or the ability to have like custom, custom features or not. But you know, I think there's definitely more that HR systems could do. I think I see too often organisations saying, Well, you know, this is, I guess, because I can't do it in the system, so I won't do it. It's like, I understand the downside of having all this information in separate places, and there's definitely a big part of sort of what will enable organisations to be data driven is to have a solid infrastructure that can back this up. But to me, that shouldn't come first. Because you will never have the right infrastructure, like it. And that's such a monumental project that costs so much money and involve so many different people, that is just, it's just going to be a barrier to getting that information. So again, starting small building from there, and when you have enough data, about enough of your organisation, that it becomes a problem to have it in a separate system, then you work on change, upgrading your infrastructure, and we see a lot of organisations that are under under, like doing this work at the moment where they're trying to migrate together, all all of it, you know, eventually that's a step that organisations have to take, but you know, it shouldn't be a barrier. And I see enough organisations that find a workaround to know that it's possible.

Mark McBride-Wright: 42:24

So in terms of like early adoption of HR Data Hub, how does that sit alongside an HR information system? Do you provide your clients with like a survey link that they can then use an almost in replacement of not having that within their HR information system?

Alexa Grellet: 42:43

Good question. So for organisations that want to use HR Data Hub, we are completely separated from, you know, the HRs system. So we're not, we're not connected in there in any way. Ultimately, I think that will be a place where we try to go to develop API's so that we can, you know, all the data that that is in different system can feed straight into HR Data Hub. But I mean, you can imagine the information security challenge will be so as a small business, we're starting small, and it's essentially we're replicating, like, sort of, like, processes that HR professionals are really familiar with. So to, they have to supply information to us in our template or in a survey that we have. And so if it means that they have to go in three different places to get the information to put it in this one central place, that's great. If they have it all in one place, that's also fine. It's because it's completely disconnected. It can work with whatever your organisation is. And our big or big principle is give us whatever data you have. So it's not, if you don't have all your information about disability, you know, disability rates, or LGBTQ plus representation or ethnic risk presentation, that's okay. Just give us what you have. And then from there, at least you'll get some insights. And then when you when you refresh your data, then we'll just go the next step. But as a basis, there's already so much that organisations have that they're not looking at from the data analysis lens and let alone from a comparative lens with the rest of their sector or specific group of organisations they want to compare themselves to. So already, they'll be a step ahead, by sort of like having that that space and that hub, that portal where they can look at all these trends that are blind spots sitting in their own internal systems. Yeah, it works hand in hand. It's not a replacement. It's a compliment.

Mark McBride-Wright: 44:41

And that and that almost helps them with you building trust with them building trust in you and they've got some control and autonomy in terms of what they're sharing in the early days, but completely get how a growth curve for HR data hub would be to ultimately have an integration or something that can then just extract that and then the business We'll feel comfortable going through all the contractual stuff that of what that will look like, because they'll see the value in the in the relationship.

Alexa Grellet: 45:10

Yeah, I mean, let's not forget that no one, there's no other organisations doing anything close to what he did have is doing the large the most that organisations are doing or maybe paying for like a survey once a year to consultancy. And that's about data. So that's the closest that people usually get. So already the the shift and just management of that information is tremendous. So we know that so it's not really our place, or a strategy or what we want to do to say, it's all or nothing, you know, it's just like, that's not how you that's not how you build a data set, I think you have to go at it step by step.

Mark McBride-Wright: 45:51

And I think that mindset of growing from within is really important. I have been part of three separate working groups in three separate sectors, general engineering, nuclear and technology, where the focus of the groups have been on data collection, and it's always about outside rather than looking in and thinking what are others doing that we can benchmark against? And then when I've sort of drilled into well, what are we doing internally, the barriers that we've mentioned already are what comes up, and I guess it as as a diversity consultant in engineering, specifically, I want to see my sector thrive, especially in a sector that is very data driven, we claim to be data driven. And one of the biggest barriers that I've seen is the inability of HR information systems to make it easy for the agents of change internally who want to enact that you get caught in a web of confusion with outsourced vendors, who are in charge of the deployment of the software to that sector. And it's just, it's an absolute mess, I tried to claim through that, that wall of confusion that you mentioned, towards the beginning, and just and just gave up there was too much too soon. And I almost think what is needed is an A to Zed of every country in the world, what you can legally collect in each of those countries at this date and time, that's then open source and made available. And then all of the big platform providers come together and create packages that make it easy to then integrate that. And then if I work in like big tech company A, and I'm in countries one, two, and three, I can then say, right, this is the plug in to my system. And I now know that I'm legally asking questions appropriately in Germany versus Angola versus Namibia, you know, because I've sat through that project, I project and one of my clients to build that infrastructure up and it took months, months and months and months.

Alexa Grellet: 47:53

And in the meantime, nothing has been collected, nothingand most importantly, the your employee, the employees feel like nothing is happening. So while all of this might be happening in the background, and we're going like, essentially infrastructure first approach, literally the lives of people that are working here, in the meantime, you know, you're not giving them the confidence that this is something that is priority number one for us. Because you're all of a sudden talking about an 18 month plus, you know, infrastructure projects, just so that we can start then talking about this. Yeah, you know, how does that impact your intention? Right? How does that impact your engagement? How does that impact, you know, the trust that people have within this organisation? Because all in the meantime, I can guarantee you that whatever organisation that was, Come, you know, Pride Month, all the statements are out there? Oh, yeah, totally. Like, yeah, and all of it. And so and it's really important to understand that, at the same time, people live that reality every day, if they're treated differently, if they're paid differently, if they feel like there's not the same amount of opportunity, or they're microaggressions that are not being addressed or couldn't possibly be addressed. Because no one we've never had a conversation about that. That 18 months plus, just to talk about how we can put this in our HR system. Yeah, it feels very heavy. And it feels like actually what you're building is the company that you want to be in 10 years rather than a company that you have now. And it's important, but you can't have it one after it's not one after another. You have to be pragmatic. Absolutely. And I talk I talk to that about I talk about that with our you know, startup folks all the time because startup people often say, Oh yeah, but you know, when we have all these flashy things, we'll be able to do this this and that and I'm like, Whoa, but you so you're gonna read between now and then to like, not sort of like keep track of like, who you're interviewing, who you hiring, like all this kind of stuff. It's yeah, there has to be sort of like a more pragmatic way to go about it and to advance things. sort of like, as you're building this big machine, you still need to advance things.

Mark McBride-Wright: 50:04

So I'm so I'm just thinking to some of my large clients, one in particular, where they've started building that infrastructure and what their, what their bottom scenario is, then the granularity, like the additional options that are there for people to then go in and start sharing against. And but then when they run their pulse surveys, they include questions as well on demographic identity. And then they can see a comparison between Well, we've only got 5% of our workforce that I've shared that they have a disability, but actually on our pulse survey that 80% of the workforce I've covered, we've got a 15% declaration rate, and share rate, oh, wow, we've got a disparity. So I guess pulse surveys are one way that an organisation can weave it into in the floor. And then before they've got this big, fancy infrastructure, they're working with yourselves with HR data hub could be a way to help have that external support and building towards that vision and that trust and that culture. Absolutely.

Alexa Grellet: 51:02

And, you know, one thing we have, we get asked all the time, especially organisations that are at the start of their journey, when it comes to data and people data, we always get asked Will, what should we be capturing? What is meaningful information? What are meaningful statistics to look at all this kind of stuff. And I think that that's one thing that really helps organisation that we've worked with that we say, Okay, well, we work with experts, like we partner with, like, the most the smartest people, you know, in the UK, and sometimes the welds were absolute experts at this. And we've come to the conclusion that, especially on the DNI index, for example, these are really like the five big things that you want to look at, that are going to be a determinant for sort of like which direction you're going and how well you're doing. And like having that confidence to sort of have a framework for what data to collect and why and in what, in what format. It's helpful, because I think like organisations often feel like, they have to start from scratch, you know, like, how do I do this? I don't know, let's put a working group together and figure it out. They're the first company in the whole world that has ever had this problem, when, frankly, every company has that problem. And so we really like the idea of saying, Okay, well, you're coming onto this platform, not just to get insights not just to compare yourself, but because you're benefiting from the know how of your peers, you're benefiting from this community of organisations and all care about the same thing. Just giving people dignity in their work and having them be treated fairly and paid fairly, and having see advance, you know, at a healthy rate in their careers. So benefit from that you don't you're not alone, you don't have to start from scratch. And you also don't have to spend 10s of 1000s of 1000s of pounds to get access to that. So not hard.

Mark McBride-Wright: 52:53

Tell us a bit about the DNI index, then?

Alexa Grellet: 52:57

Sure. So we're so proud of this. And it's been so many months leading up to the launch of this, but the DNI index is an objective, the index so that means that we own we give organisations scores and rankings on five to start with five characteristics of DNI such as gender, age, ethnicity, disability and LGBTQ plus. We give them a score on a ranking based on how they're doing only based on objective information. So it's not like, are your leaders committed to this? It's like, well, that's intangible, that's completely subjective. And you can totally manipulate that if you want to make it seem like you're better. And a lot of the indexes or similar initiatives that we've seen are very much infused with this subjectivity. So we're only looking at concretely all the employees that you have wear their hat, like, you know, where are they in the organization's How much did they get paid? How long have they been there? You know, what are the demographics about each and every single individual? And how do we analyse that so we measure each characteristic on representation by level so literally, how are different groups represented at every single level of the company, which is very rare, that's or that's, you know, indexes or things like that, look at it that way. 10 years, so how long have people been here and the roles or in the, in the organisation, representation by talent area? And that is a conversation in itself that very rarely happens in diversity like, Okay, are you like, equally balanced across the organisation? Or do you have all your, you know, sort of like, all the women are in marketing or HR and then you have no one in engineering? No one that's over development, for example. And then finally, pay differentials. So at the exact same level of seniority in the organization's do people from a dominant demography versus the other group, are they being what is the difference in their pay? And all of this sort of like worked in together gives you a score and a ranking based on your sector peers. So obviously, we're not going to be out here and saying, oh, let's let's, you know, let's benchmark a construction organisation versus a hospitality organisation like that would make no sense, right? We look at it from a sector perspective. And also we adapted by geography. Because an organisation in based in North Wales won't have, you know, the same, pay the same even chances of being as diverse as an organisation based in London, for example. So all of this is worked in together for each characteristic that you can submit data for, you get your score in your ranking. And then automatically based on your score, not only can you do break down and lots of different charts that help you understand how that works, you can you can create your own custom comparison group if you want to compare yourself to other people within your sector. But the beauty of it all is that we look at the performance of what organisations that are performing better than you are doing, and all the different initiatives that they have and all the actions that they're taking, because that's part of the data submission. And we automatically recommend, based on the data, what are actions that you should consider taking to improve your score in different areas? And so it's the whole process of not just our data Interesting. Okay, good to know. But it's okay, well, what do I do now? What can I do if my issue is that I'm paying people the same level of seniority differently? Because they're not, you know, LGBTQ plus? Then what do I do about that? What are some actions can I that I can take? So, you know, that's, that's what's really interesting. And then from there, not only do we have recommended actions, but a description of what they are case studies from companies that have done these before, and what is their takeaway research on that specific action, but we can also connect organisations with partners that are experts in that area. So if you if one of your recommended action is to implement a reverse mentoring scheme, yeah, you can read a lot about it. But if you actually really want some help from an organisation that does this all the time, great, we can recommend you to someone that we think is great. Or you can go to Google and find them yourself.

Mark McBride-Wright: 57:18

But they know what they know what to do. In that guidance. Do you do our light is higher education or universities like a target audience for the DNI index?

Alexa Grellet: 57:29

We are looking to work with the organisations in the education sector, but obviously, we look at employed people. So it's not so much the composition of students within a university. It's more about, you know, how are people because there's a PE elements to the index. So it's more about what is, you know,

Mark McBride-Wright: 57:51

Installation as an employer?

Alexa Grellet: 57:54

Yeah absolutely. But the principle of that I can, you know, can be applied to lots of different settings. We're focusing on the employed population in the UK, and very soon we'll be looking at expanding that to other countries, because a lot of the organisations that work with us are our global groups, and they have these questions about as we were talking about a minute ago, okay, well, how do I do that? Other factories were, in some countries, I'm not legally allowed to ask that. So how do I how do I get a sense for how I'm performing? I can't just ignore diversity and inclusion in France, because I'm not allowed to talk about ethnicity, for example. Yeah. So that's a very interesting use cases.

Mark McBride-Wright: 58:35

Yeah. And are you planning on doing any, as you start building a large dataset sort of sector focused white papers? Let's see on on, like a sector wide analysis, because that would be a brilliant thing to work on for engineering in particular?

Alexa Grellet: 58:52

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, actually, engineering is one of our leading sectors. So we have a large proportion of our customers that are from an engineering sort of like from the engineering sector. So wherever you have quite a good data set, and for the time being, because when we're not a consultancy, and we're still quite a small organisation, we try to focus on how can we help people become data literate? How can we help people understand the narrative that our chart is showing them to then apply that to their work? But obviously, the step after that is, what are some broader trends that we're seeing, and we across different sectors? And we've already done that, for example, really, recently, we did a, a big piece of research on like, wind, female representation in the defence sector. And so what are the trends that we're seeing, and obviously, everything starts with the data, but there's some really interesting sort of, like analysis that we can do, and especially over time, how that's evolving. So very much something that we would consider doing for the engineering field, especially because it's a field that's expanding dramatically. It's a field where, at least from we've seen in the data that we have this quite an open conversation happening about diversity compared to other sectors may be that are less aware that diversity at all levels and it's happening. Like in engineering, it's actually we see that happen quite a lot. But now it's more the phases more, okay, we're aware the conversation is happening. We're bought in, how do we make that happen? And we're sort of like at that step into engineering. So A, obviously, the more data we have, the more we're able to sort of like put this put the general patterns out to the world to sort of like raise awareness. That's very much where we hope to go, Yeah.

Mark McBride-Wright: 1:00:44

Wow, watch this space, then I think there might be, I don't think there will be a lot of exciting things to come. Or we've had such a good, such a good conversation here. And I've kind of covered off quite a lot of what I've got on my list. But I wanted to go through, I guess one dimension that we haven't covered, is in the startup space in the SME, small medium enterprise space couple of things. And you already mentioned that actually about data for founders and needing to be cognizant, offered early on and cataloguing actions that they're taking. But being a female founder yourself, I read a statistic that only something like 5% of all venture capital funding, and it may even be smaller than that goes to female founders of businesses, what are the barriers to success in the VC space, and what's been done about it?

Alexa Grellet: 1:01:46

So that's a very, like, very interesting space. And as a first time founder, this is something that I'm discovering sort of, like on the go, and some and I think that I'm sure if we had this, this conversation again, in a year, I'll be I wish at the time I had known this, this and this, I think there's there's a few things, I think the challenges of being a female founders that well, you know, we're very, very little, very few of the time are represented. So you'll, you know, you'll come into the room, and you'll often be the only one or there'll be very few women employed at VCs. So even if you are a female founder or female co founders, but you enter a room and it's just like only men, it's you, there's still that dynamic, and there's still that extra effort that has to go out and explain Okay, I need to under to analyse really quickly, what are the biases that exist in this room, so that I can then adapt my performance and especially with something as intense as pills pitching, you know, building trust with investors, where you have a really, really small window of making sure that people understand if you know what you're doing as much as possible. But that, you know, you're you're genuine, that you're determined that you are subject matter experts, like all these things, you have such a tight window. But all the while you're doing that you have to try to analyse, okay, is this Are they asking me this? Because I'm a woman, as they asking me this, it? Is the relationship with the reports that we can build the same or do I have to adjust. So there's like that extra bit of work that needs to happen, that's sometimes quite complicated to handle. I have a male co founder, and I found that that's made things a lot easier. But it's also made things sometimes challenging, because I can see the difference and how people are behaving between us. Okay, I think that I have to adjust and I have to sort of like, over time, try to impact that. I'm not, you know, in certain situations, and we're, I'm so thankful that our investors and most of the VCs and organisations that I've been in touch with are completely supportive total feminists. Yeah, it's a very supportive environment. But I've seen this in other situations where, you know, sometimes you can be perceived as, sort of like taking on some of these, like, gender normative roles of like the assistant, the organiser, the support, you know, or, and I think that that's sometimes difficult to move away from that. So I think, you know, for me, I see it more as a as a, as everything, you know, I see it as an opportunity, especially when I meet other female leaders. Yeah. And we immediately, I mean, often I feel like there's a there's a feeling where we sort of like, Ah, it's refreshing. Yeah, like, high familiarity. Yeah, exactly. And I and I think that obviously, I can't even imagine what that must be like for, you know, ethnic minority founders, LGBTQ plus founders, where it's not necessarily, you know, even as prevalent as just other you know, female just says Gender, Women. But yeah, I think so. So that's, I would say an opportunity because it's refreshing, it's also an opportunity to lead the way. The beauty of it is that there are so many spaces for collaboration and networking. That's been so helpful. I think like organising women, probably founders from, you know, sort of like 10 years ago, or even five years ago didn't necessarily have the the plethora of places to go and meet other female founders, meet other ethnic minority founders, and just feel less alone. So I think that that's something that's quite good. And something that has definitely helped me the prevalence of these places is helpful. And I think that's where people are, they've, I think, not only just VCs, but leaders or women that have been really successful in growing their organisations recognise, sort of, like, the lack of spaces available for them, and just are really proactive about just making that change. And I'm definitely benefiting from that. And I hope to contribute to the expansion of, of these places, and the normalisation of, you know, women in investment and women founders and, and just helping people realise that it's not, it's not as crazy as it sounds, and you can do it even if you've never been there before, you're not immediately unqualified. So it's all that that good old imposter syndrome comes back just during the regular that over and over again, sir, sure.

Mark McBride-Wright: 1:06:32

No, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that you'll be in a very different place in a year, two, three years from now with how successful you're going to go on and become and you'll be passed on and it's so I'm just so pleased to hear that, that that energy, and that ethos of paying it forward of of wanting to continue to expand and to help others. I really hope that's a mindset that stays within this this community that you're building, because I do see in the odd in some clients that we work with, you know, the females who have made up through the ranks, you know, it really depends on what your attitude is, and whether or not you want to dissociate from the movement in diversity to diversify, and be part of the majority male in group and then almost cut ties with people coming up behind you and have an attitude of, well, I had to, you know, work really hard to get to where I'm at. So you're gonna have to, you know, do the same as well and not hold the ladder down. And hopefully,

Alexa Grellet: 1:07:35

I mean, come on, let's, let's live, it's time to live this kind of energy behind. Think, like, yeah, it's just there's no space for that, I think, in 2021, let alone 2022. You know, when, when I came on board, HR Data Hub, and very much when David originally founded HR Data Hub, the whole point is enough, enough of sort of like, that's how can I go forward and like push everybody out of the way so that I can get better. It's like, I think especially the year that we had around, you know, COVID-19, and all these things, it's like, we live, we live in a world that's clearly interconnected, whether we like to think about it or not, we are all impacted by each other. And by the decisions that we we all make. So we can either choose to ignore all of that and try to get as much as we can individually get, and that's that. Or we can take the opportunity to say okay, well, what can I do to leave a positive mark? On something that we're all sort of, like impacted by when can I use my energy towards something that is productive? Can I actually finally align what I'm spending the majority of my day on with the kind of human that I want to be? Just overall, and I know, it sounds cheesy as hell to say that. But frankly, I don't want to I don't want to spend all of my productivity and all my potential. And I know a lot of people feel like that, doing something that is just going to be not something you necessarily proud of. That's something that reflects what you needed when you started. And I tell my team all the time, like, yeah, we look at data, and sometimes it feels so inhuman because we talk about data, but are we actually talking about people, this is a real person, when we get data from 10,000 people that work at whatever company, like those are individuals and they have very real experiences. And our job is to identify is to help identify the patterns of what they might be experiencing so that organisations can be better for them. And we should never forget that and the more genuine we can be about humanising that data back, the better, we'll all be for it, and I think it will, it will help us have the impact on the culture that we need to have because data alone does nothing. Even HR Data Hub, like having a fancy platform to look at analytics like that. That does nothing if you don't impact the culture behind it. So that's why all of this goes hand in hand. But you will have a really hard time impacting your culture if you don't have a clear view of where you are and where you're going. And that's where data especially in the field of engineering, that's like really ambitious, really analytical by nature, perfect situation. Really raised both of these sides as the ying and yang thing and just like use that as a force force for a better future.

Mark McBride-Wright: 1:10:24

Well, on that note, I really enjoy chatting to you and I'm very excited for what the what the future brings both for you professionally and also for for HR Data Hub. Thanks so much.

Alexa Grellet: 1:10:36

It's been a delight. Thank you so much for having me, Mark.

Mark McBride-Wright: 1:10:38

No worries. You have been listening to the equal engineers podcast, uncovering the diversity story behind leading engineers and those working with the profession championing change. If you've enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on your podcast platform of choice and get notified when a new episode goes live. Did you know that we also offer a full transcript on each of our podcast episodes, check out our website equal engineers.com explored are wider training and development programmes or recruitment events, recognition awards and case studies for how we are shaping the future of engineering for now, thank you for listening, and please come back and join us on a future episode.