The EqualEngineers Podcast

Episode 1 - Encouraging the future of engineering with Sir Julian Young

January 07, 2022 Mark McBride-Wright & Sir Julian Young Season 1 Episode 1
The EqualEngineers Podcast
Episode 1 - Encouraging the future of engineering with Sir Julian Young
Show Notes Transcript

Meet Sir Julian Young, retired recently from the Royal Air Force (RAF) after 40 years of Service as an Engineer Officer. In his last post he was Director General Air within the Defence Equipment & Support (DE&S) organisation in the Ministry of Defence (MOD). Discover his childhood and his journey into engineering to where he is now. 

Mark McBride-Wright:

I am your host, Mark McBride-Wright, Founder and Managing Director of EqualEngineers, and I believe that every engineer has a story to tell. The EqualEngineers podcast uncovers the diversity story behind leading engineers and those working with the profession, championing change. Hear from leaders, academics, entrepreneurs and agents of change, truly transforming the understanding of who engineers are and what engineers do. So Julian Young retired recently from the Royal Air Force after 40 years of service as an engineer officer. In his last post, he was Director General Air within the Defense Equipment and Support organization in the Ministry of Defense (MOD). In his role, he led some 2265 military and civilian specialists and was responsible of putting to work some 3.7 billion pounds annually on equipping and supporting all of the MOD's fixed-wing aircraft. In this role, he concurrently was a member of the Air Force board and the RAF chief engineer. He also had an MOD-wide role as the Defense Engineering Champion. Throughout his long career Julian held a variety of in-command, manpower policy, operational, engineering, training, logistics and staff appointments, including project team leader for the Harrier GR7/T10 fleet and on the support helicopter force, Falkland Islands, Cold War Germany and Gulf War, the first Gulf War. Julian's first degree was in air transport engineering, and he is a fellow of the Royal Academy of Engineering. He is also a governor of Bath College, and a trustee of the RAF Charitable Trust. He was awarded a KBE in 2020 and a CB in 2013 and an OBE in 2000. Julian, welcome to this EqualEngineers Podcast.

Sir Julian Young:

Hi Mark.

Mark McBride-Wright:

Hi, that is an impressive biography there.

Sir Julian Young:

Well, that's very kind of you to say, it never felt very impressive when you were doing it. It just felt like a hard, a lot of hard work. But also very enjoyable.

Mark McBride-Wright:

Absolutely. I'm sure a lot of hard work went into that, you don't get to become a Sir without putting in the hard work to work up the ranks. So just expanding on that I think with these podcasts, we are really keen to understand the people behind the face, you know, and to learn something from your personal story, any adversity that you might have been through and how your route to the top you know, what challenges did you face and what did you come across as as your head there? So before we go into the present, let's go back. Let's go back and find out about the young Julian, where did you grew up? What was the young Julian like?

Sir Julian Young:

Okay, Mark. Well, Buckingham is my hometown. Now in fact, my mum still lives there. If we were to go, I'm going to go to visit there see to fix her front gate. I was at school there, I passed the 12 plus exam and I went to the local Grammar School, the rural Latin School. What was it like when I was young, I would say probably quite unremarkable in many ways. I wasn't very good at Rugby at school, in a school that was very sporty, and the first 15 were heroes. I love sport, but I was just not very good at it. Okay, I was also not great academic either. Though, I had a very good memory and did well in exams. That's where I got the grades necessary, and was the first person in my family to stay on for A-levels. I seem to flourish though, I got a bit taller. And I flourished in the sixth form and was made head boy at the school. I got the grades that I needed, and again, was the first in my family to go to university. The rollout in school really gave me a great start to life, I'd say and I'm pleased to have been asked back to hand out the prizes of speech day a few years ago.

Mark McBride-Wright:

Oh fantastic, fantastic. So I was deputy head boy at my school and I remember that sort of first feeling of responsibility. I didn't I didn't quite make it I didn't quite make the cut to get to get head boy it's a big responsibility is it? How would you describe your school days then and and that transition into engineering beyond just the exams and you know, the academic attainment needed?

Sir Julian Young:

Well as I've already said, I don't think it was quite an unremarkable childhood, I wasn't very good at sport, wasn't sort of one of the cool children, it would be fair to say, but I, you know, I worked hard, still had lots of good friends. And indeed, as I say, when I got a little bit older, I, through just experience, I suppose I just was happy with myself, and was a bit more confident, such to the point where I think it did come as a bit of a shock almost to most children that I was chosen to be head boy. But I'd made a pretty good prefect, I suppose, I dedicated myself to not having too many riots in the playground at lunchtime, but I did woodwork at school, and studied design and technology to A-levels, I recall my school careers master asking me what I wanted to do in the future. And I didn't really have much of an idea and on the strength of continually taking my bicycle apart, and rebuilding it, which I explained to him, he pronounced that I should be an engineer, I didn't think my parents could afford for me to go to university. So I applied to several companies for sponsorship to go and route to about 11 companies from memory. And in fact, I was finally offered a place by both British Airways and the Royal Air Force to study for a thin sandwich degree at the City University. I'm still not quite really sure how I chose the RAF. But the rest, I guess, they say is history. And I served for more than 40 years, as you said in your introduction. The thing is sandwich degrees don't really exist anymore. Now, the closest would probably be a degree apprenticeship.

Mark McBride-Wright:

Okay, that's really interesting. And you mentioned doing woodwork design and technology level, that's not always a subject that's put down as our requirement for, you know, doing an engineering degree nowadays, you know, it's more of the sort of fundamental theory subjects like physics, maths, chemistry, biology, if you're doing biomedical engineering, what have you. If I had to think even though I wouldn't get into my chemical engineering course, with the subjects that I studied, because I did chemistry, and maths and French, and I think, Imperial most stipulate that you must have physics. So what role do you see design and technology playing now, with moving into industry?

Sir Julian Young:

Well, I think that sadly, I think it's on the decline, or certainly that's the last stats, I saw that not quite as many children are taking the subjects as they have in the past. I, of course, did maths and physics, because I think when I was, you know, gosh, how long ago was it? Well, 40 years ago, 41 years ago, you needed that come what may to study engineering at university. But the third subject, and it was only three of those days, wasn't quite so important. And I had always enjoyed working with my hands. So I'd enjoyed my wood work on level for GCSE. And so it was quite natural to go on and do design technology at A-levels. And it did seem kind of appropriate. That you know, to do and to be an engineer.

Mark McBride-Wright:

Absolutely. I saw when I finished my undergrad moved into my PhD, I actually found myself due, building my apparatus and doing the design of it, thinking back to skills I learned in school, about rendering and good work in my design and technology classes when I was 13,14. So there's probably something there. Maybe it's the... I know that IET supports the Design and Technology Association. Is there something that the IET is doing that is helping keep that afloat, then?

Sir Julian Young:

Well, I think it's a case of trying to encourage all youngsters to find their route through to engineering profession, whether that's a college or a university. And anything, I think that's vocational in nature, which getting people sort of hands on with some tools, designing things, making things and hopefully feeling really proud of themselves for having done that. Then, you know, it's got to be a good thing, isn't it? It's another activity regarding STEM, really?

Mark McBride-Wright:

Absolutely. So you mentioned that woodwork then was what was one of your past times? What other past times did you or do you enjoy?

Sir Julian Young:

Well, with the military, you tend to move a lot. And indeed, it isn't just a case of ways of following the flag and moving into married quarters. We've owned several of our own houses over the years where we thought that we were going to be for a period of time, and to try and give our three children, some domestic and some educational stability. So it'd be fair to say I've spent a lot of time over the years on DIY, actually, in many houses. So the design technology of the woodworks really come into its own, because we've moved so many times. But as I mentioned already, I'm not really into playing any sports to a great degree. Though I am a football fan and my whole family supports Peterborough united. So it's an emotional roller coaster ride every Saturday during the winter. These days, I've taken up cycling again, which I really enjoy, and in fact, I'm probably a little fitter than I'd been for last few years because of that. And beyond that, I enjoy exercising the right side of my brain. So I go to art galleries with my wife. We are fans of impressionist art, though I think we look at it differently. She looks at the pictures and says, gosh, isn't the light wonderful in that picture? I've picked up lots and lots of impressionist art books over the years from Oxfam bookshops, great big, thick books for five or a tenner. I study them. And I love to see the original, actually on the wall, and then try and remember what year it was actually. So maybe I'm a bit of a train spotter impression to start really..

Mark McBride-Wright:

Yeah, I love that. I love that. That's like having prior knowledge loaded up in your brain going absolutely bloody. And then with the little plaques and CNF Fucus, a memory recall exercise

Sir Julian Young:

Chip, I can get the artist right because there are some that do have similar styles. And their most important is that I get the year right there.

Mark McBride-Wright:

My son right now is nursery is doing it's a very hands on nursery, and they bring an activity to life through like multi sensory learning, so to speak. So they've been teaching them about artists, and getting them to then do shapes and make a little picture of themselves. And so he comes home every fortnight with a little piece of paper with a little blurb on the back around who the artist is and what the shapes represent. It's, it's certainly a lot more advanced than what I used to get with just a bit of paper and trying to color in between the lines. So maybe, maybe art is on the up. Now, I might need to borrow some of the books that you're mentioning, what they are.

Sir Julian Young:

Absolutely, I've got I got a whole cupboard full of.

Mark McBride-Wright:

So what has been some of the key experiences that have shaped who you are today?

Sir Julian Young:

Um, well, I would say that I've worked pretty hard all of my life to be good at what I do. As an RAF engineer. I mean, the early tours were just so much fun. I almost never wanted to leave the hangar in the evenings, just working with aircraft, working with the air crew, working with the ground crew, and being responsible for meeting the flying program tomorrow, next week, and next month, and next year. So there was some planning involved in all of it, it was just exactly what I wanted to do when I joined. And indeed, to be honest, this inspired me for the rest of my career. It was a long time ago when I did that for real. The rest of it spent an awful lot of time behind a desk and doing PowerPoint engineering, I'd call it but I think my sandwich degree that I spoke of earlier gave me a tremendous start, we spoke about vocational training. And it was a four and a half year long course divided into six months blocks. And you spent six months at university and then six months with your industrial sponsor. For me that was the RAF and so I spent two years working as a tradesman on frontline aircraft whilst I was at university. So there was a really strong vocational element to the training. But I've I think I've always worked hard to learn more to get better. I've ended up with four degrees, three of which I studied for part time, which was not easy, especially when my three children were young. I mean, leadership theorists also talk about needing to have experienced a cauldron at some point in your life. And by that they mean having had bad times in order to show your mettle and learn to be resilient. I mean, the post things that shaped me most I think were probably the hardest. On three occasions, I led transformational change, which was to pretty much modify entirely the traditional organizational boundaries of the RAF front line. And to introduce more contract realization, the motivation was unless we reduce costs, we would lose capability. But it was not make it certainly didn't make me popular at the time at all. And it was really hard to make it happen. But my team and I succeeded. And we ended up delivering the efficiencies that needed and we kept all of our stations and all of our squadrons till the next Defense Review until the next financial crisis comes along as often it does in government departments.

Mark McBride-Wright:

Love that leadership thesis they do have experience in a cauldron at some point in your career and you know that really pushing you through some hard times to check your mettle, as you say, you know, to really help build resilience.

Sir Julian Young:

I think it hardens you up. And it it really makes you think hard about why you are doing what you do. And if you can get through that, you know if you are motivated enough to do that, I think you end up certainly as a better person. And we always say that, you know we continual improvement, learn from your mistakes, etc to error is human. We all make mistakes. I think the reality is learning from and moving on. And you know whether I've made mistakes in that I think I probably did some, certainly in terms of engaging stakeholders and challenging them probably a bit harder than perhaps I needed to. But then the reality is, if we hadn't done that, we wouldn't have got the outcome that we needed, certainly in the timelines that we needed. So yep.

Mark McBride-Wright:

There's probably something there as well around underrepresented minority groups reflecting on additional barriers that they might have to go through to get to where they're at, like barriers, like cold, the cauldron of resilience coming from who you are your personal circumstances, as well as professional.

Sir Julian Young:

I agree. I mean, if we look back at one of this nation's greatest heroes, Nelson, that I remember, I'm studying about him years ago. And in fact, he went through a cauldron and in as far as whilst as, as good a sailor as he was, actually with the high society at the time, he was a bit of an outsider, because he had come from quite lonely roots, and clearly through his profession had in fact become famous, and well known, and a bit of a hero. But he found it very hard, because people didn't always see him eye to eye, as it were.

Mark McBride-Wright:

See, see, there's things we can learn from historical figures. And I guess that's why it's important to have role models that represent the present, but also learn from the past. I think the IET recently did a campaign on that actually sort of capturing engineers from the past and celebrating their stories, and also thinks of place is going to have some new pictures rolled out soon off a recent campaign from current engineering role models.

Sir Julian Young:

That's exactly right. From look well, from looking at the past, the present and the future role models. And in fact, I helped as one of the judges for that. But also, we've had just a fabulous campaign quite recently, through black October. And again, looking and celebrating successes in the past, which again, I'm absolutely certain that many of those individuals will have been, will have found adversity in, in being as good as they were at the times that they lived in. And, you know, we all need to remember that,

Mark McBride-Wright:

Of course. So in the last four and a half years in your service in the RAF, you were Chief Engineer, can you tell us a little bit more about being a chief engineer? What did that involve?

Sir Julian Young:

Well, part of it was that I was lucky enough to have sat on the Air Force board, and I was in the job that I was in, I was also responsible for acquiring all of the MOD's aircraft. Though being the RAF chief engineer, I would say made me the most proud. It's a figurehead role for the RF engineer, branch and engineering technicians. So I spent quite a lot of time speaking to our young engineers and promoting their professional and personal development. They're all also had a day job element to it, and had me as the head of air worthiness for all of the MOD's aircraft. So I was responsible for assuring the safety cases for design and support, which I did by delegating responsibility to a number of chief engineers that we had, indeed, one for each of the aircraft types. And I worked with them as the subject matter expert on individual issues. Looking back, we had no breaches of air worthiness in my time in the job. And I'm extremely proud to have my name in goldleaf paint on the board, in my old office recording that I was the RAF chief engineer for four and a half years.

Mark McBride-Wright:

Amazing. So we've we've captured a bit about heard a little bit about the Julian of the past and the journey that you've taken to get to where you are now. Just looking ahead, thinking about the present. What would you say to anyone out there? Who is questioning whether or not a career in engineering is for them?

Sir Julian Young:

Okay, well, I'd say give it a go. There are so many exciting opportunities within engineering. I mean, it touches every part of our lives from microscopic technology within our smartphones, through aircraft engineering, to developing renewable energy sources, and helping at this moment to find solutions to real world problems. So if you're passionate about having a positive impact on the world, then this is I think, the perfect industry to join. If you're creative, innovative and like solving problems, and I reckon there's a career waiting for you within an engineering

Mark McBride-Wright:

Absolutely I think that idea of creativity and being innovative is something that you don't always think about when you hear the word engineer and maybe that's one of the challenges that the profession faces in terms of attraction talent attraction, but what do you think are the biggest challenges facing engineering over the coming years?

Sir Julian Young:

In the in the UK as you know very well Mark, we've currently facing the struggle of a skill shortfall and a large gender imbalance to. So there is a challenge to encourage young people everywhere to join our profession. And I would say at the moment, especially young women, beyond that there are huge global challenges to overcome, such as climate change, and net zero targets to reach. Without the skillsets and diversity needed within the engineering industry, we will struggle to overcome those challenges. It's essential, we create a sense of belonging, and identification to ensure that not only our members, but the wider engineering community feel valued, and are recognized to enable them to help us achieve our mission. And in the IET, that is to engineer a better world.

Mark McBride-Wright:

That definitely resonates. That definitely resonates I, there was something I read on LinkedIn this week. And it was in light of all the cop 26 climate conference happening right now in Glasgow, someone shared that their 11 year old daughter came running in the room in tears, when they've made the connection that some of the dates that cop were sort of claiming as to when you know, climate change will really kick in and the devastating effects will be impacted. She first added that number to what age she'll be, and felt helpless and started getting scared and worried. And I think engineers in their mid career now we are going to start seeing this from generations, hum from the upcoming leaders of the future really holding us to account as to what actions are we taking in our personal life and in our professional lives to really, you know, make netzero happen.

Sir Julian Young:

I absolutely agree. I think that we can wait for governments or we can wait for every nation in the world to do something, or we can make a difference in our own lives. And if everybody does a little then together, it's going to make a big difference. It's interesting, you spoke about, you know, the Z generation, I spoke in my presidential address on taking up presidency of the IET, of four Zs. And one of them, I was using a bit of artistic license to talk about squeezing sustainability. So I wanted to mention sustainability, but there is no Z in it. But the squeezing for me is the fact that almost whatever happens at the corporate and governmental level, the reality is, it's probably not going to still go fast enough. Yeah. And that it is going to be engineers that actually ended up solving the problems of climate change. And we're probably going to have to do that. We're gonna have to do it better, faster, and probably cheaper to allow it all to happen in sufficient time.

Mark McBride-Wright:

Absolutely. So does that what are the main opportunities that does that represent the biggest opportunity for our profession?

Sir Julian Young:

Of life? I think it does. I think engineers have the opportunity to change the world. As the late Prince Phillip famous famously said, everything not invented by God is invented by engineers. And thus, it will be engineers that solve the problems of climate change. And every day, we see new and exciting examples of how we can use technology to repair our planet. Yeah, STEM professionals are the difference makers, I think, that really can drive change, and solve the problems that we face across the world.

Mark McBride-Wright:

I like that. So what are you excited about in your role as the 148 president of the Institution of Engineering and Technology, what impact do you want? And do you hope to have?

Sir Julian Young:

It's difficult in a year, isn't it. The time flies by so quickly, but I'm most excited by putting in as much energy I can as being President, to benefit the IET and its members to raise awareness for our causes tenue to achieve our mission, and have the opportunity to really embed our new strategy 2030 into everything we absolutely do within the IET. I'm a big fan of the strategy. Having spent some time with post it notes and whiteboards and helped develop it as a trustee in years gone by. And it's something which again, I pledged that I will help consolidate into everything we do, and communicate it across the across the entire IET global membership. But I'm also excited to have a lot of fun along the way, which largely will be to meet so many of our members and volunteers. I know stereotypically engineers are supposed to really not like people very much. But the reality is, I think maybe I've learned over a career of working with people to like people a lot. And to know that if indeed you want to make change and you want to make a difference, then you've got to, you've got to work with people and try and inspire and be inspired by. It's not all one way. I get as much inspiration from people who are so enthusiastic about things that it really does redouble your efforts to work a bit harder, even a bit more harder, and do as much as you can and make that difference.

Mark McBride-Wright:

I think your your point earlier around the fusion of engineering and technology and inspiring others, I think if there's nothing that can inspire anyone more than that, then you know, I think that's a great message to help get the next generation there, it certainly makes me think about my technical expertise as an engineer, and how can I use that, again, through my current work with Equal Engineers and trying to really corral these different bits of the profession together to be a force for change?

Sir Julian Young:

Well, I think it would be good if I mean, there are there are so many engineering organizations doing great stuff, and I think the more we collaborate, the you know, the better it is that, you know, we will be able to cover the ground a bit faster, go a bit further, and, and hopefully do a better job and not end up spending the same money on the same things. But apart from there was one thing that I did want to mention, I'm certainly shining a light on technicians throughout the year. And as far as I think it's been a last group of people among our profession. And I would really rather hope that indeed, we will grow the number of professional registered technicians, not just in the IET, but across all of the PI across the whole of the country. And I think if we did that, and I think we we may actually also genuinely change the status of our profession.

Mark McBride-Wright:

So I saw the phrase "eat sleep engineer, repeat" used as part of your presidential address at the at, can you tell us a bit more about what this means to you?

Sir Julian Young:

Okay, well, did you like the t shirt Mark?

Mark McBride-Wright:

Look, it looked great. Where's my one I want to in the post?

Sir Julian Young:

But if I think I've got a spare one. So we're, I'll send it to you. Is that okay? Yeah, that's, I wanted to be a bit more impactful, I suppose. You know, I've seen many people stand up. And the sad thing is, by the time you get to be a president, that doesn't include Danielle, last year, but there are a lot of gray haired men. And so I just wanted to be a little different. But I think engineers and technicians are extraordinary people. I think we have a particular mindset. I think that large, we're a restless group, who were never quite happy with the end result, knowing that actually, we probably could have always done it a bit better. Indeed, there's a number of times when I've done something and somebody says, "Wow, that was kind of really good". I kind of ended up biting my tongue really not to argue it because in my brain, I already knew that it was not quite as good as it could have been. Yeah. And if I'd got the chance to do it again, then it could have been even better. I think engineers are masters at continual improvement. Yes. So. So I think we always reflect on what we did and the things that we do. So that's why I believe that we do truly "eat sleep engineer, and then repeat". I mean, perhaps there you know, there is time for other things. But for a lot of people who know me well, and would probably say I verge on work on work, workaholism, that, I would say there's no time for anything else other than eating, sleeping, and most importantly, engineering.

Mark McBride-Wright:

And so you you meant you alluded a moment ago, they're about met engineering technician. So how do you hope to raise the rate of professional registration, or for engineering technicians?

Sir Julian Young:

While I hope to raise the rate of professional registration for our engineering technicians and ICT technicians, both exactly the same by encouraging and communicating with organizations and people where we have lots of technicians working and fighting the battle on every single level in every organization. As you as you also mentioned, in my presence address, I reached out to all of our members, our fellows, our students, and apprentices, and I asked them to help influence those within their workplace. You know, the companies they deal with and build on past President Peter Bonfield can call it which was pushing the importance and value of professional registration, and demonstrating competence and professionalism across the industry. So I think we need to influence corporations, to see that there is a benefit to their company and its technicians. It's not just about the cost, but I think it's about making their technicians feel valued. And the IET I think we need to look at our continued professional development that we offer, and to ensure that it aligns with the needs and requirements of our technicians now and into the future. But once we've shown to organizations the benefits of professional development and what it can bring, then it will make their workforce I believe, more productive, and certainly more innovative. The soft skills engineers and technicians will receive far surpass the cost and people will feel valued. It will help retention of workers, enable people to develop their skills and to give people the status they desire, especially for those in the military to pass on into civilian life and to continue their professional trade, rather than taking a career turn. And as a result, we'll have lost another technical professional. So I hope that there is a lot that we can do. And in the IET, have steps in place to try and address those issues.

Mark McBride-Wright:

Does the Armed Forces covenant, the cover that sort of wrapper pathway of that transition process to make sure that is watertight as possible?

Sir Julian Young:

It does a great job in doing that. But there are still I think, some boundaries to or obstacles rather to overcome in trying to explain what it is that one does as a technician or an engineer in the RAF. And if indeed, one is professionally registered, you know, as an engineering technician and ICT tech ironshore See edge. It's an immediate kind of passport. Yes, the others understand and they go, Okay, I kind of vaguely yep, I understand where your thought you're coming from, I understand the the level you're working at. That helps a lot. So it will help with the Armed Forces covenant is a great scheme.

Mark McBride-Wright:

Fantastic. And so how is the IET supporting the engagement of young people in engineering and technology? I guess not just young people, but just people who are not engineers, you know, what is the IET doing to try and diversify the profession?

Sir Julian Young:

Well, it's a case of trying to inform people about what engineers do, inspire them to, you know, understand and hopefully work along the same cause line, and ultimately influence decision makers into wanting to support more engineers in the future. So whether that is STEM in classrooms, or whether that is some time for mentoring, for those people on apprenticeships, or those undergraduates just turned graduates to kind of encourage them really to work hard. With regard to young professionals, we've got a fantastic network around the globe. They run on campus groups to encourage university students to continue their journey into engineering and technology with the IET. Our volunteers host inspiring events throughout the year to reach and you know, reach their their peers, their colleagues, and to continue to highlight how rewarding a career in engineering can be, which aren't you and I know it can be. We've we have our young women Engineer of the Year awards, to shine a light on incredible young female talent within engineering. And as I mentioned earlier, it's important that we raise the profile of these incredibly talented individuals to showcase role models that better represent those within the industry, as well as inspiring young people to look at a career in any STEM related topic.

Mark McBride-Wright:

Tell me a bit more about your interest in seeking greater levels of diversity in engineering.

Sir Julian Young:

Well, I'd like to think that I've always been an overt champion of equality, diversity and inclusion, EDI, Mark, I mean, you and I have worked together in my time in the MOD to promote diversity. And I really hope that work is continuing to date. And the IET is passionate about EDI. And I'm delighted to say that we want to position ourselves as leaders of change. To ensure engineering is accessible and representative of the over the entire community of the entire society. I'm absolutely pleased to tell you that for the first time ever this year, the 16 members of the IET board of trusts are 50-50 women and men. And I'm absolutely really, really proud to share this diverse board. And I hope that we set a standard for others. By communicating that onwards, we have an eye on EDI strategy, which outlines our achievements so far. And it's given us goals to achieve by 2025. We focus a lot on changing the perception of engineering trying to smash stereotypes I mentioned stereotypes earlier, and to present role models that represent the entire talent pool within engineering and technology. If we're just in the position of asking our members for more information about all aspects of their diversity, and I trust that we can really focus on more than more than just gender and ethnicity. Indeed, I'd like to get to the position where EDI in all honesty is not an issue at all. So we both know that there is a long way to go. And for now, we just got to keep pushing hard to make our profession more balanced to reflect wider society. I think that's the aim. And I think it's down to all of us to get on and do that.

Mark McBride-Wright:

And what would you have you got any so one of our research themes of Equal Engineers is our masculinity and engineering research the minutes very much focusing on each underrepresented group and instead flipping the dialogue to focus on the white cisgendered heterosexual able bodied male engineer that represents the majority that in the journey and aspiration for all the positive reasons for doing what we do, sometimes might push back or adversarial, or they're, they're disproportionately represented in terms of the pecking order. So in terms of distribution of power of underrepresented groups or representation across an organization, they hold the higher levels of, you know, influence. And so I spend a lot of my time working with engineering institutions, organizations, employers, for that's the case, and that can be the de facto standard attitude. So preaching about improved business cases and you know, employer reputation, it's not having that deep impact in terms of changing hearts and minds that translates through to strategy and investment. So what for change makers out there that are engineers now from underrepresented groups that are facing like an uphill struggle, and they're trying to push. What have you got any words of wisdom on how they can engage or try and change in a positive way without just always focusing on the positive positives, but still having it as a non threatening conversation?

Sir Julian Young:

Well, I think there's a couple of things. And I appreciate you're looking in your perspective, Mark, from a much wider range of diversity issues. But if I may, I'll give an example, are talking to Angela Oh, in which both of us know well, from women in defense, she educated me a few years ago, in terms of if you are trying to recruit a more diverse workforce, then you've really got to look hard at your advertising, and the words that you're using within your adverts to try and make them more attractive, more appealing to a broader spectrum of our society. And we started to do that, certainly in my last place of work within the Ministry of Defense, and we found that worked to a degree. So that was good news. I think beyond that, once we can't get into, you know, having quotas, because I mean, that's a bad thing. And against the law in this country, but it's not against the law, to find good role models. And to try and use. And I know you said not always not about good examples, but actually to have those role models, who are, through virtue of their own success and hard work, are successful, and doing a great job within their organization. And certainly, I think what we've got to try and do is not burn them out, as it were, by asking them too many times, but certainly encouraging them, to let it be known that you know, some of the adversity or social differences that they faced in the past, actually what those are, and to try and encourage others to, you know, to follow them. Really, I think beyond that, I think it's about better education for all of us. Because, you know, what's the, what's the prize? Engineers are great problem solvers. And as we know, you know, we'll end up with groupthink if everybody comes from the same background. So we need diversity in our profession, probably more than almost any others, because we've got some massive problems to solve, and we need as many ideas as we can possibly get to help solve them. And that's got to be about greater level of diversity in the future.

Mark McBride-Wright:

Julian, I have absolutely loved talking to you today, with all the insights that you've shared. I think that is a brilliant note to end on. Have you got any final words of wisdom that you'd like to share with our listeners?

Sir Julian Young:

Well, I would say, Mark, thank you very much for having me on Equal Engineers. I hope very much that I and you can work together to try and improve things into the future. And I would say, you know, together, I'll use the IET's catchphrase, but "together we can engineer a better world". Thank you very much indeed.

Mark McBride-Wright:

Thanks, Julian. Have a great day.

Sir Julian Young:

And you!

Mark McBride-Wright:

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