Mark McBride-Wright: 0:10

I am your host, Mark McBride-Wright, Founder and Managing Director of EqualEngineers. And I believe that every engineer has a story to tell. The EqualEngineers podcast uncovers the diversity story behind leading engineers and those working with the profession, championing change. Hear from leaders, academics, entrepreneurs, and agents of change, truly transforming the understanding of who engineers are and what engineers do. Hi, everyone, I am Mark McBride-Wright, Founder and Managing Director of Equal Engineers, and I'm delighted to welcome you to today's podcast, where we have Craig Orrock, who is treasurer of the UK students for the exploration and development of space. A third year mechanical engineering student at Heriot-Watt University in Scotland, and also winner of Engineering Student of the Year at the Engineering Talent Awards 2021. And also the Overall Excellence in Engineering award as well. Craig, how are you?

Craig Orrock: 1:39

Yeah, I'm doing great. It's fantastic to be here and to be able to talk about my experiences.

Mark McBride-Wright: 1:45

Fantastic, really, really, really great to have you on. So in terms of like the structure of what we go through, we like to look a little bit in the past about your past history, but about who you are, find out about your, your diversity story. And then we spend a bit of time looking forward to the future, looking at the present and looking forward to the future, to get your take on, you know, how, how things might change. going forwards and what you hope to do. So if we can just start at the beginning. And I'm conscious that you're also a student. So in terms of lived experience and industry, and we're actually to start my usual question, as where did you grow up? And what was the young Craig? Like, you're still very young. So, with that in mind,

Craig Orrock: 2:36

Yeah so we are back to the beginning? Yeah. So I grew up and we were Scotland and a part of the country called Perthshire you know, it's really really far away from big city in a small town. And you're in town, the aim young cake, I think, in one of those typical very stereotypical thing of engineers we are you know, I always had an interest in science and maths, and which, you know, I think most engineers find themselves doing so um, but I think you know, my, has been been able to go up in such a rural part of the country I mean, you know, I was able to quite an adventure I was able to look around you know, I think a very different to someone growing up in a city and in aquatic, we're in such a rural area, I find him I don't know, I just really profound I just really enjoyed it, because now my weapon, but I live in a bigger city. I just feel like it's just not quite the same.

Mark McBride-Wright: 3:29

Okay, so that sort of curiosity, that ability to just get out into the natural world and explore around you. I mean, so I grew up in Edinburgh, outside of Edinburgh, even the difference between Edinburgh Midlothian you know the skies were darker you could see the stars so in Perthshire, I can imagine it's you've got that luxury of having even less light pollution compared to the central belt and in Scotland did looking up into the sky is that what made you get into your interest in space?

Craig Orrock: 4:08

Yeah, I think for them being able like what you see there it's just such a light pollution you know, the night sky will really just be up you just saw tick and and his entire aim scope and just be able to really appreciate that. And I think that coupled with going up watching All Star Trek episodes, really so I've you know, and pitch for the interest in the space.

Mark McBride-Wright: 4:30

So they will want to your source sources of inspiration, will be Star Trek.

Craig Orrock: 4:34

I mean, who wouldn't want to be a Captain Kirk?

Mark McBride-Wright: 4:38

Yes, yes, absolutely. So how would you describe your school days and your journey towards decided to study mechanical engineering?

Craig Orrock: 4:49

Yeah, so I'm moving to high school. I think it's the sort of idea kind of like science and kind of like maths. I like space, but I didn't really have a sort of clear plan. no aim, you know, well, this is what I'm going to do. But you know, and then, I've realized, I started getting more interested in to rockets. I started watching you know, it's all new rocket engine launching, new rockets, brand new companies designing rocket engine, and then NASA to proper interest. And then from there to sort of, okay, oh, wait I like rocket engine, what do I need to do to get there? And then I think that's been a pain day mechanical engineering to be very good match. And I find it not mechanical engineering. Oh, why me to get into really stuck into aka engines? Just because I wanted to build a spaceship. Again, you know, Star Trek, I wanted to build the rocket engine. And that's kind of what influenced me into picking mechanical engineering. And, you know, when I hopefully when I graduate, I want to get into a propulsion engineering. Amazing, very much. It's very much a case of I like this. How do I do it? I supposed to do anything else?

Mark McBride-Wright: 5:54

So is that? I mean, what past times? Do you enjoy? Is that one of your something that you extend into your spare time as well?

Craig Orrock: 6:02

Yeah, I mean, well, if I am old, seen every week, you're what you'll never work a day in your life. I absolutely love rocket engine, I'm actually, I'm actually working on my own personal engine. At the moment, you know, it's only very, very small, it's only 10 Newtons. But you know, that's just how much weight or engines, you know, I work on at home or work on a uni, I work on the minute by extra Kirklands. I just can't get enough.

Mark McBride-Wright: 6:30

So I, I mean, I mean, I studied physics, and I do know a bit of propulsion. And I am aware of what a force of 10 Newtons can do. But applying that to rocket physics, and some of our listeners might not even know what that means. It's only 10 Newton's what so what give us give us some contexts in the

Craig Orrock: 6:49

sea. So can you do an oil, if you prefer to be free, that's about one kilogramme with us, or about two pounds of thrust. And this is how much force they'll be able to hold the water engine in your hand. biorefining that's how much it will feel like a weight. Right? It'd be like, if that sort of AIM does. One kilogramme of thought absolutely nothing compared to the aim, you know, once people gentlemen, like in the end 1000s, if not millions, millions of kilogrammes of the US. But you know, so it's a very small engine.

Mark McBride-Wright: 7:20

So if you were to put that in your I'm imagining here, a coke bottle, some sort of fizzy drink bottle in your garden with some mechanism at the base of it, that's going to give some thrust will that shoot up high into the sky? Or will it just lift off the ground like ball?

Craig Orrock: 7:40

You know, not quite um, basically what it is something you call a spark igniter which it is screaming, because in backbox engine, because the using like liquid oxygen and liquid methane by vehicle. So what this spark ignited do basically as a metric rocket engine, and this metric Walker engine, you'd have to use exhausts from this merger, aka engine to start the bedrock engine. Right. So basically, I'm just working on the igniter part of it. I saw officially having to lock the engine in one way or use a small one to ignite the back one. Right? It's much easier to make the small one right, maybe a spark plug.

Mark McBride-Wright: 8:16

Yeah, I guess it's not really the sort of thing you can just go and do in a field and public people may be wondering what your where's that boundary between personal pursuit and there? Is this person a national security threat? Yeah, I

Craig Orrock: 8:31

mean, you know, surprisingly, people are very open. Yeah, some kind of Firewalker engine in your field. I tighten it. Yeah. But fortunately, the customer quote, unquote, some contact in the way will define just knowing, like, open empty bit of and nice and safe facing far away from everyone else. Yeah. So you know about at the end appeal to somewhere. Yeah. But yeah, nice to see your safety at all, apparently. So I find rocketry it just so dangerous. You know, we want to make sure I know, everything they could do by hand. You could do a boy, right? 500 metres away as well. Yes,

Mark McBride-Wright: 9:03

yes, yes. Yes, no, of course, you're reminding me of my days of safety engineering when I was a technical safety engineer. And then I never got to do it always wanted to go and visit because a company called DMV DNV GL. And they ran they run a facility in speed Adam in the north of England, and it's the test facility off where the the the mimic incidents and they look at, you know, plume clothes or radiation or thermal radiation to try and mimic major accident hazard scenarios that come out of big events happening so that our technical safety engineering models have more you know, they're more they're less theoretical and more mimic and what what actually happens and so yeah, there anything I think there's videos you can watch on YouTube actually have tests. they've done. So I guess it wasn't quite rocket propulsion. But that was the equivalent of the big explosions in my field of engineering that I never got to visit. But absolutely, safety is always paramount. And it's, you have to risk assess it and mitigate and, you know, reduce, swap out things if you can swap them out for safer alternatives. So safety must play a big part in your, in your risk assessment that you have. Yeah,

Craig Orrock: 10:32

definitely. I mean, if you see my check boxes depend intersect just because I want to record every single possible risk and every single possible thing that could possibly go wrong, no matter how small, you know, a very, very integral to fuck proportion, engineering. Yeah. I see. I mean, even in my extracurricular, for example, we were building a slightly bigger engine, and but endeavour, music, University of Edinburgh Walker society. Now even then, we're still doing everything as safe as possible. We can't afford having an accident. It's just not worth the risk.

Mark McBride-Wright: 11:04

Absolutely. So what what have been some of the key experiences that have shaped who you are?

Craig Orrock: 11:12

Yeah, so in terms of who I am, I think, like I said, and you know, all Star Trek episodes, no, I always used to love watching them, and just being able to see, you know, just AMC, the curiosity, see how, and how just motivated and ready to just get out there a score, and just find new things. I think that kind of ended up influencing my personality a little bit, I end up being a little bit like that, you know, I really just find, really insight and engage and get into things. And I just wanted to find out more about everything. And, you know, I find in high school, I had a few teachers who were very encouraged in office, if you teach us he really allows me the opportunity to to get stuck in and find out more about stuff. And so that really influenced me and put me on the path of wanting to become an engineer. And being able to just talk about, do the same sort of being curious and finding a thing, but end up getting paid.

Mark McBride-Wright: 12:07

Yeah. Something applied something applied. Um, so you've spoken openly about about being deaf or hard of hearing? Can you tell us a bit about a bit about your experiences being an engineer, you know, how how you've managed your studies, because there'll be people out there listening to this that haven't walked in those shoes that have no experience of working with someone with with who's hard of hearing. So be this, this would be a great opportunity to just hear from someone with that lived experience, what it's like and how best people can can support.

Craig Orrock: 12:48

Yeah, so a very brief background of our binder. I've been deaf all my life. And I have used medical implants called cochlear implants. And they actually allow me to hear the people think, Oh, well, they must give you a path here. And they really don't, they give you a very limited form of viewing. They can kind of get kind of worth and kind of get away by just not anything yours good at normal human. Ordinary here interview I. So I think something to be very, very often just member, the person that you're talking to us Delta. For instance, you can hear me I'm talking. You know, I think sometimes I talk but I can talk better than I can hear. Okay, right, because my accent may be relatively mild or maybe not so obvious. But I'm still deaf. I think. I think it's mostly just common sense stuff in time to accommodate someone who has deaf or hard of hearing, just you know, make sure in in a quiet environment, make sure Captions are available everywhere. You can make sure you're talking clearly at both paste. Just make sure you I think Morphe comments and stuff. Yeah. But you know, I think it's very easy just to sort of accidentally forget or just not think of it

Mark McBride-Wright: 13:59

and how work how was it through your skill career through an education? Did you get the right support that you needed? I mean, clearly for you to go on and stop secure a place at Heriot Watt University. How did you find being in education before University?

Craig Orrock: 14:22

Yeah, me very fortunate in another high school, I've been fortunate that I had a very good access to equipment and had a very small microphone device that I can give to teachers teachers could wear which really helped me significantly. And I know a lot of other people who are in my shoes but didn't quite get the support they needed. Okay, not a very big big problem. But no, I'm very fortunate I had access or technology had access does help me quite a bit to aid me to you know, go on to further study. Okay.

Mark McBride-Wright: 14:55

And is the Are there any places that we can signpost, people to, to learn a bit more about how to support. So for example, that example that you just gave about microphones be worn by a teacher that did they tune in directly to your implants? And so yeah, how did they work?

Craig Orrock: 15:21

Yeah, so my implant, they have like a little receiver you can write in, same small receiver. And what it does is basically if I have a fight someone being given someone a microphone, yeah, but it goes straight to your employee. So I could say anywhere in beam a classroom or waitress theatre, if you like, I know sound like they're just standing beside me. Yeah. Because a lot of people don't realise. And obviously, your ear biscuit actors are gigantic, gigantic container. Yeah, so you can pick up sine waves. But my empire don't offer that. I've got a very, very small limited microphone, which administering the limited range. Right. So this microphone just helps to sort of augment about every white. Got you got? Yeah. And yeah, in terms of, you know, finding out more about Deaf stuff, I would recommend Deaf Action. Action. So charity one and led by deaf people, they've got, you know, resources on sign language, they've got resources on helping deaf people do a lot of really good stuff. Okay. I mean, highly recommend. Okay,

Mark McBride-Wright: 16:19

absolutely. We'll put a link to that in the transcription of this podcast when we have it produced. So coming to the present then in as, as I mentioned, in the intro, in 2021, you won the Engineering Student of the Year category at the engineering talent awards. And then you also went on to win the winner of winners. The overall excellence in engineering awards? What, what did this mean for you? And fought? What do you hope to do with this platform in the future?

Craig Orrock: 16:53

I mean, yeah, I mean, getting the email and finding out all the finalists was already quite a big shock. And then kind of do the award ceremony and find out I'm Engineering Student of the Year, leaving mega shock. And then all of a sudden, here we go, here's the gigantic award, and I've won now when I smell, so just massive shock. But it's very much appreciated. And, you know, a civility platform, no acne, I'm able to talk to employers, I'm able to find myself, you know, with a much bigger, bigger audience than I would normally apart. And, you know, I mean, that can use the platform to maybe continue to advocate for deaf people continue to provide a voice for people who maybe aren't able to advocate for themselves, and just try to really encourage everyone to just take into consideration, you know, deaf people and hard of hearing people, and what can you do to make life just a little bit easier,

Mark McBride-Wright: 17:40

I love it. And I'm really pleased that it's been able to allow you to allow you to do that. And hopefully, you know, when you come for applying for job roles, to become that propulsion, engineering specialist or propulsion engineer, rocket engineer, you'll, you'll go on to achieve great things with this as well. Which brings me to my next question, in the last few years, alongside your degree, you've worked for the UK students for the exploration and development of space, UK, Said's organisation, that is a bit of a mouthful, it'd be nice if they could condense the acronyms a little bit. I also have to remind myself what it stands for. Can you tell us a bit more about the work of the organisation?

Craig Orrock: 18:30

Yeah, so to give us a very brief description of UK set, set a South African international movement to try and encourage him to join space sector student for that patient development space. UK said at the UK chapter of it, okay. If I said USA, because said India, they will got lots of different countries around the world, starting their own side bank, just but UK said, obviously, the one for the UK. And yeah, so I'm part of the executive committee, which means I oversee, and I'm able to help steer the direction of UK, so it's okay. And then in terms of what can I do with them, you know, I've been able to, I really appreciate the opportunity to govern me, because I've been able to, you know, attend events I've been able to attain Emir compensate, and just started continue to advocate for students and trying to encourage them to join the space sector. I'm just trying to show them, you know, because a lot of people may think, you know, oh, well, if I want to do space stuff, I've got to be a scientist, or I've got to be an engineer. But you don't necessarily have to be, you know, the plenty of different opportunities out there for you to join the space sector. I mean, even right now, for example, we're planning a conference of the year and international students based conference. And from there, we're able to give students the opportunity to speak to always like really, like employers and really big companies, recruiting people, people to join the space sector. So that's the sort of stuff you do,

Mark McBride-Wright: 19:53

and how can people when is that due to take place and how can people find out more information about it?

Craig Orrock: 19:59

Yeah, so um, The 2021 will be held on to sixth of March, and our host university, our partner university for that year, as Ken called London. Okay, if you want to find out more about NSSC, you can go to UK Sotho. org slash NSSC. You can find out more information about it, you can find the company they're going to be attending. And you'll also be able to secure target there as well.

Mark McBride-Wright: 20:23

Fantastic. Fantastic. So can you just can you give us an idea of the UK space sector? What is the what size? Is it? How many organisations are going to what's it worth how many employees any statistics that you've got? Because it's such I think NASA in the US is just still such a dominant brand, when you think about space, that people might not necessarily realise that we've got stuff happening on British soil?

Craig Orrock: 20:52

Yeah, absolutely. And you're right, you see, it's a bit of a cultural phenomenon. You know, it's a very sort of you see all American movies and American cultural product for the pitch NASA. And you feel like you've got a very good home going to be white SpaceX right here in the UK. Okay. Yeah, no, employer, we're talking, you know, 10s of 1000s of people working in the UK space sector turnover billion pound picture. And the UK government set a target of aiming to capture 10% of the global space sector market by 2030. Wow. So you know, be really patient for a space sector to go. I mean, for example, Glasgow, Glasgow is actually the number one place in the whole year for small satellites. Wow, got it, the thing called CubeSat, for example, but it's only a 10 by 10, tend to be a by 10 centimetre satellite, initially from a cube, and a very cheap low cost satellite, which allow universities and students the opportunity to develop satellite hardware at an affordable cost. And Glasgow is basically pioneering the effort behind that. Wow. So it makes it more accessible for people to actually launch lights. Because you know, when you think of a satellite, you think this big gigantic thing takes up an entire room, but doesn't need to be, it can be very, very small, very cheap, very accessible. And in terms of getting the satellites to space, people don't realise that. But in the UK, we actually got, I believe, about seven space boys, and seven base boys and either getting belt under construction or getting planned in some way or form. Wow, do yoga, seven different places to launch stuff to space.

Mark McBride-Wright: 22:29

Amazing. You mentioned in your engineer Talent Award nomination about a vision to embed accessibility into the very inception of event planning and event delivery. So that's always a consideration and not an add on activity. What advice do you have for event planners out there to help with this?

Craig Orrock: 22:53

I think the problem is when people are doing the event, and there's so many thinking about event and how to do that it is easy to start to forget or might realise, or Hayward deaf person is being present. However, the visually impaired persons being disadvantaged, well, it's alright to be in their shoes and try to access this. So I think the most fundamental thing would be, you know, just talk to people who are having to let these being just just talk to them, ask them, What can I do to make an event accessible for you? And just sort of really consider well, okay, how, okay, imagine I have no access sign at all? How will this event look like to me? Or imagine you have no ability to be able to see, for example? Or how will this event look to me? Just off trying to think and understand and put yourself in their shoes?

Mark McBride-Wright: 23:38

Yeah. And then actually, budget for it from the very beginning?

Craig Orrock: 23:44

Yeah, but I mean, far too often. And very unfortunate. A lot of people just see that it's something to avoid the very end very well, I don't know, okay, what's the minimum I can do to help them? We really should be incorporated into your planning from day one. And we can should be a key part of all your planning decisions.

Mark McBride-Wright: 24:01

Yeah. Because actually, if you invest in that transcription service, we then have a written transcript of everything that we're saying, which is great for post event documentation.

Craig Orrock: 24:12

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, all you think aren't necessarily limited just to helping disabled or helping people access to event, you know, there's plenty of benefits for fully abled people to be able to use these same exact services to be able to access it right, as well.

Mark McBride-Wright: 24:26

That's something that I try and live and breathe. And even with the best intentions, there's still moments of learning to happen as you come through. And so it's, you know, equal engineers is by no means perfect for what we've done today, but we're always trying to learn and, you know, practice best practice and embedding from the very beginning of inception of any new ideas, what we what we do, actually, I can share with you what I learned SQL engineers in 2017, our first of our careers fair we had, it was all singing, all dancing. We had 35 exhibitors, I had 500 students, we had parallel panel discussions happening. And we did one on each diversity strength. And then on the one on disability, we only had one person put their name forward to be on the panel. And it was a Deaf engineer from from from a construction employer. And I hadn't budgeted for filming, I was making them podcasts. And I thought, How ironic to make a podcast, but then, you know, with Simon be able to consume the content afterwards, you know, this is my lack of knowledge of the varying different spectrum of, you know, the deaf community and the various levels. And I thought how simple it sounds simple, but I thought, how would you create an inclusive podcast. And so that's why after a Google search, and the obvious thing that comes up is that you provide a transcript. And I always budget for it, every time I'm planning a podcast now just be like, right, I've got my platform that I use that provides a quick transcription service, you know, I've used some of the AI stuff, and you end up having to do all the edits, anyway, to correct it. So now I've got a service that I use, but in those early days, actually transcribed it ourselves, word for word. And that was so time consuming that I think what people need to realise that there is that are very, very affordable tools out there that allow you to embed practice from the get go. So that isn't onerous. And it doesn't feel feel difficult to do, it has to be easy to do tech has a tech, it's there to make things easy for us to do, we just need to build it into our workflow. And then as you say, there are so many benefits that then stem from that having that written record, in particular, when it comes to the podcast transcription piece. So that was a learning moment for me. When setting up equal engineers, you know, I was stepping into running an organisation that was to represent other strands that I don't identify with or that I'm not. And I was stepping into that fear that leaders have that walking on eggshells feeling that am I going to offend am I going to say the wrong thing, you know, I want to show my positive intent to be continuously learning. And then the next time I arrived at that, that journey, so intimately, I guess, was when running the engineering talent awards. And then, you know, knowing that you were being shortlisted, and I hadn't put that in from the beginning, you know, in my, in my event planning, run in a live event, obviously, going forwards, that is now going to be baked in the event plan. So it just even those of us that are the most enlightened or have the best will in the world, you know, there's we can always all do better and all learn, that's why it's so important to have people like yourself, share your story, like make people walk in your shoes, if they're not actively doing it. So that we continue to, you know, push, push ahead with with better inclusion for all.

Craig Orrock: 28:37

Yeah, I mean, exactly what you're seeing, you know, accessibility doesn't have to be expensive. There's plenty of very affordable options out there. Um, you know, for example, for a deaf person, you know, including transcripts, including capturing all your videos, recorded videos, after they're back in providing live transcripts, there plenty of EMS services out there. And then you know, for example, see if someone got a mobility issue, or simply just make sure you know, whatever venue and you've got access to, you know, elevators, the backs, and all walkways nice and clear of any obstructions. You know, it's very sort of relatively simple thing that you might not otherwise think of, until you've been able to speak to someone who left those being says, and yeah, don't need to beat the banker. Very, very affordable, very easy to do. So. It just a lot of time, it just not a core part of the event planning process, when it will need to be

Mark McBride-Wright: 29:27

and you almost need to have an accessibility checklist. There are there are and there are some available online. One of the things that I've started doing each time I hire a new venue is firstly doing a site tour to make sure that you know, it's it's accessible. I once hired a venue for there was no elevator. No sorry, there was an elevator but it was the goods lift. So it was the lift at the back that the catering company All that had to use rather than the word any fancy lifts at the front of the building for for the public. It was via an escalator. And, I mean, yeah, I was just out, it was a massive oversight on my part, but you learn, you know. So now it's always something to look out for. And I've actually started asking venues ahead of them getting our services, can you send me a copy of your accessibility guide? Because some organisations have building accessibility statements. And if they don't have one, I'll then share one with them, which in my view, represents a good overview of what you're covered. So it's then sort of getting them to think ahead around. What improvements could we make? Where we are restricted with like a grade one grade two listed building that was built over 100 years ago, where this wasn't a design consideration? How can we adjust the facility or at least flag up to people that there is going to be a limitation here? And then it's up to the event organiser to make that decision as to whether or not to, to work with that venue? But I do think that it's, it's right now. It's just too, as you see, on the side peripheral, it's an afterthought.

Craig Orrock: 31:17

Yeah, I mean, it's when you're appointed, depending upon the event, if you're thinking about access, accessibility from the very beginning, it's very easy and relatively straightforward to implement, always think it's when you're on the other side of event planning, and then maybe it'll be California venue, that's weird, that be really difficult and get really expensive to include accessibility. So you know, the earlier you plan for it, the much better the speed overall will be for people.

Mark McBride-Wright: 31:42

And that actually applies to engineering design, like the earlier the earlier in your design process that you accommodate for X, Y, and Zed. And the more you know, the less expensive it will be further down the line where you have to add have add on layers. I always think of design like how we used to do safety. So I used to work in the concept design phase, like three stages of design, concept design, front end engineering, design, and then engineering, construction, operations. And then the concept design phase, you have a lot more degrees of freedom, you could blue sky thinking you had more controls over what you could do it from a safety perspective, we always used to put everything through something called on inherent safety design workshop, where we would look at all our design options. And we would think, right, are there things that we could do better here across the platforms? Or it was oil and gas platforms used to work on? So could we create some separation? Could we add in some blast walls? Could we replace one of the hydrocarbons for something that's less flammable, less explosive? You know, Are there alternative chemistry processes that could be used to produce this, this this product. And when I started working on some construction projects and infrastructure projects, or moving away from offshore to onshore, it really made me think about how much more we could be doing in engineering design about looking at accessibility as a lens, through the design chain, not just thinking about accessibility of the end user, of the member of the public, or the member of staff who's going to be working on this facility or consuming this product or service the beneficiary, but actually through the design process, thinking about inclusive engineering design. That's where the doubt having diverse teams then comes into it. You know, if you've got a diversity of perspectives within the engineering design team, you're more likely to be covering covering all grounds. And so it's it means cost savings, that you might incur further costs that you might incur further down the line can be avoided if we start thinking about accessibility from the beginning. So I'm curious to hear from you as a future engineers, a future leader in the sector. What are you doing our university students now considering accessibility through your engineering studies?

Craig Orrock: 34:16

See, I think the problem is I think I want you to cultural thing first, a fundamental end, you're trying to encourage people to consider accessible from the very beginning, might you say, you know, you're trying to view things to an accessible wine, they'd be late, but I just think students aren't being provided enough resources, or even just being given the awareness thinking, okay, but not everyone can be fully able, not everyone is going to fit into your papilla or box or not everyone can fit into the box of your ideal customer or ideal consumer. You know, there's a wide range of aim you know, people about in belted, different background. And because, you know, I feel like a lot of time you'll see a lot products and services have been designed for someone who's fully abled, when in reality that It's not the case, I think there still needs to be some significant work done to try and talk to her and, you know, get people to think about their own way back in their studies, university studies, and you'll be able to appeal that we'll be able to then be carried within them towards to their career. Okay, don't go looking for it.

Mark McBride-Wright: 35:17

So there's work to do there, and then mark, joy, bringing that forward,

Craig Orrock: 35:21

you know, I mean, being able to be given the platform, and hopefully I can then you know, be able to use that as a force force of good and trying to sort of encourage that sort of process.

Mark McBride-Wright: 35:29

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. It's, we are working on that right now as equal engineers, because we have, you know, we've got a wide network that comprise universities, engineering, employers, engineering institutions. And just trying to triangulate all of that is, is represents a huge opportunity for equal engineers going forward. And so we are, we are working behind the scenes on some projects, some activities, and it all comes down to funding. So we're just working out mechanisms that can help them make some of these ideas come to come to fruition, my vision is that every single engineering students in the United Kingdom should be going through the training that we do with engineering industry, are creating inclusive cultures training, our inclusive design training. So the modules that we work on with engineers that make engineers go, oh, I hadn't thought of it that way before bringing that forward, and then doing it within the engineering curriculum. That means that we're then firstly training the leaders of the future in these principles. And then secondly, we're raising the bar of what you're asking, when you go to an interview with your engineering employer, you're you have the engineering capital to ask these questions around how they're living these values and practising these values professionally in their organisation. So we start creating this big feed forward loop of learning, that then catalyses sort of diversity and inclusion not being peripheral and on the side and add on but starts to become just part of the fabric of how we do our engineering.

Craig Orrock: 37:15

Yeah, I mean, for them, for instance, Finem example, if you're thinking of, you know, you're trying to encourage him, maybe people that are already in the workplace, people have been in the workplace for maybe 20 or 30 years by that point, you know, it's good to try and carve time to think of it. But the earlier, you can do it, the better because like you said, it's very much a feedback loop, where if you're teaching students at the beginning of their careers, or here's how to be more inclusive, they can then take that knowledge with them, yes. And take it to their own companies take it to your own careers, and you can sort of share that knowledge in themselves. Yeah. As opposed to having to try and you know, tell people who are already very established in the workplace, and try and change the very long term habits, and trying to encourage them as much better to be able to try and have that organic go. Yeah, just as a sort of slowly transforming the workplace themselves, I think find employment.

Mark McBride-Wright: 38:04

Absolutely. No, watch this space, then we'll we'll work on things together. And so what would you see? To anyone out there who's questioning whether or not to study engineering?

Craig Orrock: 38:19

Yeah, so aim, you know, your degree, they did aim degree or college course outside to study, you know, it's a bit of a pivotal decision in their life. And if you consider an engineer, and obviously, it's awkward, because with engineering, obviously, when people think about engineering, you think going for, okay, you're going to make things. But you don't necessarily have to be limited in that way. Because when you graduate engineering degree, what you're saying to employers, as I have studied engineering, I have to really think critically and ability to think about how to solve problems, I can think about how to communicate to people, it's a lot of various sort of soft skills that again, engineering, they may not find with other courses or other subject areas, and you're not limited to just people think of engineering, they think, you know, what, I'm just going to design something. But you know, there's a very wide spectrum of potential career opportunities for you. You might choose to go into engineering management, you might choose to be part of a design team and bounce things on a computer, you might choose to be in a workshop and build parts and components physically in the hand is a such a wide spectrum that even if you're going to entry, and with one potential career in mind, you may find yourself Tinder nuclei to each degree.

Mark McBride-Wright: 39:31

Yes, yes. Absolutely, like a non linear career path. Yeah, that's not quite a linear line there when I said nonlinear but you know, I mean,

Craig Orrock: 39:41

yeah, so just so many opportunities available for you. But you know, engineering, you can do really, almost anything.

Mark McBride-Wright: 39:49

Absolutely. So what do you think are the biggest challenges facing engineering over the coming years?

Craig Orrock: 39:59

I think Fundamentally, it just trying to encourage diversity. Because, you know, a lot of times people end up from diverse background, they see the engineering establishment of the like, and they see that it's just full of, you know, street by male engineers, but you, and they just know, well, my role model for them to follow a different goal of making to engineering, surely I can as well. So I think the biggest issue facing companies trying to increase diversity, I don't know, I know, a lot of companies are trying to increase their diversity in terms of equipment and stuff. But, you know, think companies will look or think about what, okay, I'm trying to improve my diversity quota by trying to improve how many people diverse people got working for me? What am I actually doing to encourage them to apply for me? What can I actually do beyond just when we're looking for diverse applicants, because a lot of companies find themselves just on the website, they just say, We're aiming for diverse African, please apply? Yeah, but then they're not doing anything beyond that saying,

Mark McBride-Wright: 41:00

yeah. You know,

Craig Orrock: 41:02

why should people even apply to a company?

Mark McBride-Wright: 41:05

So do you find employers need to be doing more to showcase to sell to be transparent about what they're doing internally? Yeah, when make you want to apply?

Craig Orrock: 41:18

Yeah, to what they've got not a lot of employers, they'll just sort of do the bare minimum. And they'll just say, you know, oh, we want diverse people to apply for us. But then they're not being very transparent about it, and not really seeing why they're not really seeing okay, but this thing is in place for you to encourage diverse people to apply. And I think it does still present a bit of a barrier and terror of Africans, and you will find that, I think that's quite a Ricardo Tangora. Okay.

Mark McBride-Wright: 41:44

And what about, like pipeline off? The leaders come in after you the engineers come in after your entry and in the profession? So in terms of outreach to schools and colleges? Is that something that you've gotten involved with? Is it something that UK Said's do or Heriot Watt, like what are your thoughts on the diversity pipe of the pipeline from sort of 2030? Onwards? And what's happening now?

Craig Orrock: 42:12

Yeah, I mean, DK said, then we have an outreach team, for example, UK, so it may actually go into schools and not going to school from a wide range mentioned from maybe no school to maybe wealthier or more well off, he is ranging all the way to school with maybe a lower socio economic background. And it's such a wide range profit, the content that we find it Kosta, interested, because want to do more? I think so, all we really have to do is to not try and encourage that part. And we obviously, he said, we do have the line, obviously. So okay, so we are encouraging cat, you know, the space sector is eight, therefore taken, joining space sector, look, we have only done more models, and all the different backgrounds, the space sector is really there for taking. So we're advocating on the part of employers, but we definitely feel the employer should probably be doing more themselves to try and encourage people joining SpaceX.

Mark McBride-Wright: 43:08

Okay, and what do you think about? I'm asking this because it came up in an earlier podcast. So I'm interested to get your views in terms of we're very good at doing outreach. And yes, we could be doing more, there is more of a focus than in recent years, in recent years than in the past, sorry, on on on outreach. So it's inspirational outreach, I mean, in terms of like pursuing careers in engineering and stem. But when it comes to actually finding out in detail, the specifics, the different types of engineering, the different pathways to become an engineer. That information both for pupils, and I say pupils to differentiate between university students, I say pupils to mean people at school, and also their their careers, advisors, teachers and parents. So they're influencers. Do you think we have a good way for people to find that information? Or do you think it's all a bit patchy and all over the place and very, very confusing.

Craig Orrock: 44:17

So for engineering as a discipline as a whole, I think it is a bit patchwork in town Wi Fi, there is also additional eight, which doesn't just stop in the classroom, great, you come and you've done the IP type of a classroom, but then the kids have no way to sort of follow up or they have no way of being able to find out anything and beyond that. But we actually tackle this problem at UK. So for example, could be also on a careers website called Space clear.uk. Okay, and on there, we've got loads of information relevant to any student, you know, ranging from primary school all the way up to university or graduate level. You've got article, you've got resources, and that's how we're sort of tackling that. Okay, the classroom, a beach. Okay, we're always encouraging kids. You know, after we finish each activity, we always encourage Dumbo combined endorsement basically.uk can be article can be resources, email us, any question must be asked automatically and I reach probably after your wife the classroom environment.

Mark McBride-Wright: 45:10

Okay. love it love it. And I'll take a look at that. Um, so can you tell me about your interest in seeking greater levels of diversity in engineering?

Craig Orrock: 45:24

Yeah, I think in a way, I think diverse people you've got such in different skills and life experiences they can bring to companies and employers, you know, I think we can really offer quite a lot more. I think diversity is so diverse, there's so much more than just ticking the box and just seeing your diverse, I think it really sort of encouraging that combination of different cultural different role speaking to different life experiences, and using outlooks, I think, you know, any company that more diverse, is going to naturally produce a better, more cohesive team that can, you know, produce better work, do better stuff.

Mark McBride-Wright: 46:02

I really hope that with people like yourself coming in the profession in the years to come, and with the work that you're doing, that Yuki said, and the work that we're doing with industry currently that we really do start to expedite that, that cultural change, and start to see a real uplift in the diversity composition of the engineering profession.

Craig Orrock: 46:28

Yeah, we're gonna have a much of economic, although companies starting to now move in the right direction and start to improve the diversity, there are still quite a lot of work to be done. Yes, I know that. No, you know, if you're looking at like a graph, for example, we're still at the very bottom of the graph, only just starting to move up boys. No, yes. And I'm hoping there's one of these exponential self sustaining thing to eventually want to get over a hurdle. I think, eventually, there will be some natural organic growth that we can encourage more and more diverse people after and be 1020 years time. Hopefully, it will be a lot more. Hopefully, you won't have to quickly because make no course we have to shift the culture. We're having the control over to we need more diverse people. Yes. And in 20 years time, it will just be the people. Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. No, we're having to constantly emphasise the fact that we need people beyond just you know, straight white male.

Mark McBride-Wright: 47:18

Yeah. Yeah. And I, I'm very sure that we will continue to work in this space collaborate together. As you start to move upwards into into industry. I've really enjoyed chatting with you today, Craig, I hope you've you've had fun on the podcast here.

Craig Orrock: 47:43

Yeah, thanks. fantastic to be here and be able to talk about man, it's been two. Thank you for the opportunity.

Mark McBride-Wright: 47:48

It's an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much. You have been listening to the equal engineers podcast, uncovering the diversity story behind leading engineers and those working with the profession championing change. If you've enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on your podcast platform of choice and get notified when a new episode goes live. Did you know that we also offer a full transcript on each of our podcast episodes, check out our website equal engineers.com explored our wider training and development programmes our recruitment events, recognition awards, and case studies for how we are shaping the future of engineering for now, thank you for listening, and please come back and join us on a future episode.