Mark McBride-Wright: 0:10

I am your host, Mark McBride-Wright, Founder and Managing Director of EqualEngineers. And I believe that every engineer has a story to tell. The EqualEngineers podcast uncovers the diversity story behind leading engineers and those working with the profession, championing change, hear from leaders, academics, entrepreneurs, and agents of change, truly transforming the understanding of who engineers are and what engineers do. Today, we've got Jenny McLaughlin, a project manager from Heathrow Airport. Jenny joins us today to share her story and talk about the work that she's doing in the engineering sector. Jenny, nice to see you today. How are you doing?

Jenny McLaughlin: 1:15

Yeah, I'm doing well. Thank you. It's it's lovely to speak to you and talk about this subject that I'm incredibly passionate about.

Mark McBride-Wright: 1:23

Fantastic, Jenny, you've supported us on our Engineering Talent Awards. And you've been a strong advocate for the work that we're doing here at EqualEngineers. And so I really just wanted to take the time to find out a bit more about yourself, what drives your work, and what it is that you're leading at the front on at the moment with your work at Heathrow and beyond. But let's go back to the past, let's find out who journey is. So tell us about that. Tell us about where where did you grow up? And what was the young journey like?

Jenny McLaughlin: 1:56

So I grew up in Hartfordshire, and my mom was a teacher as I was growing up, and my dad, structural engineer, so my mum taught physics, a lot of my sort of passion around, I used to be taken on to building sites with my dad, when he was doing works, we used to spend quite a lot of time discussing, you know, subjects around engineering. So it's always kind of been part of my everyday life. I think as a person, I was always described somewhere between Tigger and Piglet. So very bouncy and energetic character and, and always interested in the getting involved in lots of things. But internally, quite a quiet person, always lacking in self confidence in some way, and really doubting myself quite a lot. Because because of the fact that my brain works differently meant that I quite often ended up in trouble or got things wrong or felt like I was failing a bit. And I think that impacted how confident I was to kind of go out into the world.

Mark McBride-Wright: 3:00

So when you say your brain works differently, what do you mean by that? How does it work differently.

Jenny McLaughlin: 3:05

So when I was when I was in primary school, I was really struggling with the kind of the mainstream parts of your education that you get, and a teacher there recommended that I went for diagnosis for dyslexia. So I found out when I was eight, or nine that I was dyslexic. And it was a kind of a penny drop moment, I think for from my mom and my teachers, in particular, that they could understand why I could articulate and came across as very bright and very inquisitive and curious, but unable to do the big picture thinking but getting that information down onto a piece of paper that they could then mark was very, very difficult for me. And so you know that, that thinking differently that or that ability to, you know, engage and be interested in, and then put dots together that others wouldn't see is really kind of what has, I guess, driven me through through all of my career.

Mark McBride-Wright: 4:02

That's a really important skill, being able to it's a diversity of thought even that neurodiverse individuals can offer to our to our design team can offer to a homogenous group that maybe don't challenge one another who've all worked together for a long time to to her, you don't see the bigger picture, essentially. So have you found that your ability to think differently and see problems from alternative angles have have served you well in your journey into engineering? And then you're in engineering now?

Jenny McLaughlin: 4:32

I think definitely there. The feedback I've received from from projects and teams that I've been in, in different projects that I've been on, is that the ability for me to ask sort of questions that no one else has thought of, or to stretch people to think about the problem or solution or the inputs differently, or differently meant that we have hopefully come to a better conclusion than doing things the way we've I always done them. And I think the important thing is, is that it's there, every part of every person in the team adds their skill and their input. And it's having somebody who can take all of those inputs and then present them back in a way that everybody can understand each person's point of view and give those options for moving forward is really valuable. And I think sometimes teams that are all the same and all homogenous, they miss that element of innovation.

Mark McBride-Wright: 5:29

And with with neuro diversity, I'm just conscious that some of our listeners, it might actually be one of the first times that they're hearing this word, or they haven't connected with it before. So how would you define neurodiversity?

Jenny McLaughlin: 5:44

So neurodiversity is the concept that everybody's brain is wired differently, it's the same as, or similar to, you know, word of biodiversity, you know, there is a number of different things within our world today that come about that we call, you know, bio diverse, and neuro diverse is the same principle that all of our brains are wired differently. And each of them have their their strengths and their struggles. And the world, the way that it's been designed, kind of meets the, you know, the 50, to 60%, that are very similar to each other. And the world has been designed in a way that meets those that those people can meet the way to process and to experience the world, those of us whose brains are divergent from that sort of 50 to 60%, or whatever the number is, really struggle, because our brain doesn't process the world that way doesn't think that way. And therefore, it's more challenging to to exist in the world. And that can lead to all different sorts of mental health challenges and other problems with it, education system and other work environments. And I think the idea is that if we, if we understand everybody's brain works differently, and we actually create an environment where everybody has the ability to survive, and to thrive, we actually improve existence for everybody, because there'll be those in sort of more lots classes, normal brain development in wiring, and those people will still struggle with elements. And if we improve it for everybody, we've also improved it for them.

Mark McBride-Wright: 7:25

And that applies, I guess, when you're reflecting back at school, and when you found it hard, like your parents and your teachers, the whole assessment process has been designed around neurotypical people that 50 to 60% of society that are plus minus whatever percent relative to one another. And then for those thinkers that are neurodivergent have that neurodiversity, the system that's been designed by the majority, you have to conform or fit into a methodology that doesn't align itself or work best for people being able to flourish. I remember at one of our careers fairs, one of our clients, we were talking about their final stage of their assessment centres, and how some people just cannot perform or don't perform at their best in in an assessment centre in a role model situation, you know, but actually, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't be a brilliant engineer, in fact, actually assess them individually, or give them a piece of paper and a pen for writing down their thoughts and their contribution. And then they can be assessed fairly equally alongside the others. I think it was a young man who lived with Asperger's. And so assessing him in a group situation, you know, he was very introverted, very shy, it just, he found it very, very difficult and challenging. And I think it's a shame when well, but it's just unfair, isn't it? Because it means you're not you're losing that talent, and hope how good an engineer, people from those backgrounds would be.

Jenny McLaughlin: 9:03

And I think, I think there are companies and industries like the GCHQ, who've definitely found what they're the skills that they need within, you know, cybersecurity, etc. And what you need to thrive and perform well there did not meet their current or the previous assessment criteria. And actually, when they change their assessment and their recruitment style, to actually look for the skills and celebrate the skills that did require, they completely, you know, increase the individuals that they needed within within their departments because they actually tweaked the recruitment to meet the skills they were looking for. And I think that's quite often, particularly within recruitment in careers fairs, etc. We've tended to continue doing things the way we've always done them, and then wondered why we don't have the results we want. You know, old adage of, what's the word? You know, what's the definition of insanity is doing the same thing the same same way, and then we're looking for a different outcome. And I think we, you know, what EqualEngineers do and why I'm such a great supporter of all of the work you do is because you are incredibly brave and courageous in the way that you are looking to do things differently, and supporting those underrepresented groups to, to be able to access the world of engineering, and thrive in the world of engineering in a way that's never been achieved before. And I think that truly is the only way we're going to bridge the skills gap we currently have within engineering and the construction industry is to absolutely provide the mechanisms in recruitment and retention in onboarding all of these things have to drastically change. And only then will we stopped talking about EDI and stopped talking about all the things that we are right now.

Mark McBride-Wright: 11:00

No, I completely get that. And thank you so much for the kind words, but equal engineers there. But it's hard. You know, it's it's hard. Like with anything with diversity inclusion, when you're doing things differently doing it going against the norm, from what people have done in the past, you start to push people into their discomfort zone, even in this we've just launched as part of the mentoring or mentoring programme as part of our first cohort for our pathways programme are very pleased to say that around 8% on that programme, were disabled or neurodiverse, you know, that they declared in that category. But with that then comes on upwards education with the mentors of what to expect from the mentees, because sometimes those social filters that are they're the sort of unwritten rules of society of how do we go about interacting with one another, what I love about working in neurodivergent individuals is that they cut through that, you know, there's no filter, they get to the point and some people can take that as abrasive or missjudge a situation. And it's even harder when you're doing a mentoring arrangement over email, or virtually, and you can't then tune into the, the language, the unspoken language that's come in when appoints delivered. So it's my point here is that I spend a lot of my time, not a lot of my time, I've learned in my journey since setting up equal engineers, where I may have someone in front of me that are non neurotypical response to a situation. That's how I'm starting to learn how neuro diversity might I'm not saying it is, but it might be a reason of why this person's thinking differently. They're suggesting things differently. You know, they're, and I love it, I love it. I absolutely love that diversity within our team. We've had student ambassadors working with us and I know that people that I can go to when I just want the real deal shared back with me, you know, like a real evaluation of how things are rather than something sugar coated, or people stepping around the problem or not really seeing it as it is. And I think that's one of the strengths that engineering can have from having a more more neuro diversity within the sector. In fact, what do you think in terms of, I don't even like the word diagnosed, but you used it, so I'll use it like, what do you think the rates are in engineering of undiagnosed neurodiversity?

Jenny McLaughlin: 13:29

So I would, I would suggest that those probably somewhere in the region of 20% and above individuals who, who think differently and have a have a neuro divergent wired brain. I think it's probably higher. But I think the education system when unfortunately shift some people out before they've even so they could have been engineers, but they didn't pass physics or maths wasn't their strong point, and they end up not not being able to, to thrive in an area that could well have suited them. And I think a high proportion are under diagnosed and particularly in women are more likely to be underdog and there's more likelihood that you are you live until you're in your 30s or 40s, before diagnosis because there is a gender bias to to diagnosis and there's a whole load of research and studies in there and in some very, very talented individuals, sort of furthering that cause and also you're likely to be under diagnosed if you're from an ethnic minority. Again, you're more likely to your behaviours are more likely to be attributed to unfortunately, stereotypical ideas of your cultural background, rather than look looking at the underlying cause of potential use. struggling because actually your your reading ability is lower because you have dyslexia or you can't sit still and your concentration is really difficult because you have ADHD. And there is, you know, there is proof that there's something in the region of 40 to 50% of those in jail and within the justice system, or neurodivergent. Again, because they've struggled so far, much at school, they then fall out of the system and an act the way that they've been treated, that they're not, they're not good enough. And I think that's very sad. Anyway, I'm in true ADHD dyslexic style and going off on a tangent. But I think the point is that in engineering quite often, you need problem solvers. You need big thinkers, you need attention to detail, these are all things that differently wired brains excel at. And, you know, you look at the big breakthroughs in technology and innovation throughout history. The majority of those people have been neuro divergent, you know, you look at the likes of Apple, Microsoft, even back in time that you know, that people are looking at Michelangelo and and others and actually seeing the way that they process the well being so different is not likely that they could be.

Mark McBride-Wright: 16:17

Absolutely so we just need to work harder than don't wait and do more to get more people and, and people back as well to be me even leaving for whatever reason. So I had to look at your LinkedIn profile. And I saw that you've been at Heathrow for 12 years, many different roles, not many different roles, but a diversity of experience within your your time there. So what what are you doing now? What have you done in the past? And what's it what does a typical day in the life of a project manager look like? Heathrow?

Jenny McLaughlin: 16:51

I've actually been at Heathrow for coming up to 15 years now. British Airways authority before it became Heathrow before we were...

Mark McBride-Wright: 17:02

I stand corrected them.

Jenny McLaughlin: 17:04

It's an interesting one of the LinkedIn profiles that they do that they split between the two companies. But yeah, so I started in, I started in aviation, as a an environmental and safeguarding officer at East Midlands Airport. And so that was looking at ensuring anything that was built in and around the airport didn't affect the aircraft safety. And obviously, we're in terms of environmental terms, East Midlands Airport was the first airport in the UK to get ISO 14,001 accreditation, and move down to Heathrow to do an environmental role, which allowed me to do a gap analysis of a number of areas around the business, which really gave me that network of individuals that I still utilise today in a better understanding of how all the different elements of Heathrow fits together. From there, I worked in airside for a period so undertook a number of and that's where I really got into the project world, I undertook a number of minor projects around aircraft, the icing so created the first off gate, so on the taxiway de icing facility in the UK. And we then did various IT projects, looking to move all of our stakeholders onto a specific new system of it, which was definitely a challenge in itself. And from there ended up in infrastructure as a as a project manager and have done for built both built things in terms of introduced a new remote coaching gate into an existing terminal. And I'm now looking at the refurbishment and maintenance of areas of our taxiway. So, yeah, working in aviation, and it's definitely a completely varied field. And you can you can go in a number of directions and work with a great number of stakeholders. I think a typical day is generally definitely started with coffee, coffee is definitely where I start my day without that my brain does not function anyway, sensibly. And from then, you know, within this COVID world, it is a number of, you know, a number of meetings, it can include site visits, so going out and seeing the project in real time and kind of working through any health and safety or quality or different areas that we need to review and giving the project team that sense of top cover that they're you know, that they have support for me in highlighting anything that needs to be highlighted and, you know, supporting them if there are roadblocks we need to remove in order to move things forward. And genuinely around that, you know, in pre COVID times, it would be a lot of conversations in coffee queues and, you know, passing comments just to see how the rest of Heathrow was working if there's any kind of interest or overlaps. Now it's more down on teams messages and those kinds of things. So it's a different way of working but Still just trying to touch base keep in contact with all of my network to ensure that you know anything where any kind of butterfly wings were flying over here isn't going to go off and affect something somewhere else or understanding is something else has happening somewhere else is gonna impact on what we're doing and trying to keep that overall sense of big picture.

Mark McBride-Wright: 20:20

And you've been you've been working, you've been working really hard to embed diversity inclusion into what you already do. And you've been working on some exciting work with what the engineers do in their day jobs through design reviews pertaining to a particular set of regulations, the construction design and management regulations. So looking at from a sort of systematic, inclusivity perspective. So I just wondered if you could tell us a bit more about this, what successes and challenges you've been around it?

Jenny McLaughlin: 20:55

So yeah, it was, it was one of those instances where, as my line managers and team now giving me too much time to think is always a bad thing. Because I'll connect two things together. And then and then be passionately trying to move that thing forward. And I think in the in the first instances of COVID, and sort of being trapped in some way in our houses, and definitely trying to keep myself entertained and interested in moving forward, I was working on two things at the time. One was upskilling, myself in terms of what the client responsibilities are under CDM 2015 regulations. And one of them was looking at inclusive design, because as the lead for the Disability Network, I needed to understand how do I influence my infrastructure team, to build things that are more inclusive of all different types of abilities. And when I recognised, the two things actually should go together that when we say we, as clients and design, no principle designers are designing for something to be safely built. Who do we have in mind when we're saying that and I suddenly realised that actually, the majority of designers have in mind a five foot a white man, who is completely able no sensory, cognitive or other impairments to build the infrastructure we're asking them to. And that's fundamentally wrong. If we're looking to increase the diversity within engineering in the construction industry, we need to have a whole plethora of people in mind when we're designing safety, because otherwise, we'll introduce them into an industry that is fundamentally saying you don't belong, because we haven't designed something you haven't designed for you to be as equitably safe as the next person. And I think the the moment that I when I explained it, why I wanted to pursue this as a pilot project at Heathrow was the moment I described to our director, that I had previously walked across the site and felt incredibly unsafe. At one moment walking across that site in myself, I could feel it, I could feel my tummy. Clenching that that feeling but I didn't say it to anyone. And I didn't talk about it, because I did not want to come across as incompetent should you know that I couldn't do my job because I, that area was not designed for me. And so I didn't say anything. And I think that moment when I described that a number of people in the room think you know what, I have had those moments where I felt unsafe. And I haven't said anything, because I don't want my identity to be the reason why I'm not supposed to work here. And we what I've been trying to do with the pilot project and the conversations I've been having across the industry is we need to move away from somebody feeling that they can't speak up about feeling unsafe, because they are a woman because of some difficulty they have in their dexterity, their sight, their hearing, or even their facial features in terms of fitting masks, and PPE, etc. And actually needing to be able to put our hands up and say that's not designed for me do better. I'm not safe, because you haven't thought of me when you've designed it. And that's the that's the narrative I want to flip. And why I talk about systematic inclusion is because if we systematically increase the lens we're using on the demographics that we're designing for in safety, we also increase the ability for the diversity to feel they belong, we also increase the well being of those individuals, the mental health of those individuals, not having to wear this cloak of no self identity because they can't talk about the fact that they are no different in some way and and they don't feel confident enough to highlight that, in particular towards their safety. You know, all of these elements quality everything, I think stems from this incorrect assumption and standard that we've set that you can't Don't redesign how something how something is created, because we unfortunately have caught caught in the trap of believing that we, we've always designed it that way. And that's the way it always needs to be designed. And it's not possible to do it any other way. And if innovation in the in, in all of the industries around the shown if anything, you know, if when you and I were growing up the thought of you and I having a conversation on our phones, and recording, it would not have been possible, you know, the idea that you could text message someone or you could have captioning on a video, if you're hard of hearing, all of these things weren't possible. So I think it's about getting to the point where we say you can't say you can't play, you can't say that somebody can't be involved in something, you have to find a way to innovate, to ensure that they can be involved. And as I've said previously, I think that then improves the safety, the well being the quality performance for everybody. Because I think those individuals who are seen as you know, maybe the weakest links are actually the Canaries, they're the ones that are highlighting to us that something is fundamentally wrong in the system. And we need to listen to them. And we need to improve so that the majority of our current engineers and construction workers aren't taking their own lives aren't leaving the industry with some sort of impairment, be it muscular, skeletal albeit lungs, you know, there are, these are all things that we have taken, that we were turning a blind eye to Yeah, and become highlighted when we recognise it with we're fundamentally not doing it right. Yeah, right now, I'm passionate, and could speak lots about it.

Mark McBride-Wright: 26:48

Actually, it was one of the on that point, it's it's the the thing that you and I really hit off on was that allowed shared interest on inclusive design, you know, when when I was a technical Safety Engineer for five years working in construction, and I used to work in the concept, design phase or concept feed front end engineer and design engineer construction, and then operation, I used to work in the blue sky thinking, you know, projects would typically be six weeks to 12 weeks, you come up with a few scenarios, and then the client would consider which one do they want to take forward and do a more detailed cost on the part of that design process was a methodology developed called inherent safety design. And so you would look at all these designs, look at use a set of code words, to try and maximise how safe the design options would be, before you get locked into certain decisions, the further along the project process you go, and the more costly it becomes to make those changes. And this became a standard piece of design practice these inherent safety workshops. In fact, Trevor clacks, was the safety engineer who's the founding father of basically off process safety engineering. So it's always been in my interest to start using that route that engineers are familiar with, when it comes to how rigorous we approach our physical safety, and start expanding that into our end psychological safety, the ability to show up at work, be your whole self, and talk authentically around if you do feel unsafe, and not other people to respect that. And so it's, it's so so exciting to hear that you're actually taken an approach that uses what we're already doing regulations that are already there, and then making this systematic inclusion live there. You know, so that so that the engineers are getting that message in from, they're getting the message in within when they're doing their engineering, it's not something on the side, it's not a luncheon, learn that an employee resource groups run in and it's over here, and not in the middle and actually putting it front and centre in how we do our day jobs is so so important. I think the next steps are around, how do we systemize the methodology of doing it within a CDM review or inherent safety review. And so by having diverse design teams, so actually having people at the table, these diverse mind seeing things but then having a methodology and approach. I don't feel like we're quite there yet not to my knowledge of how we go about bringing it to life. That is the the next frontier. So if you've got someone listening to this, wanting to replicate what you've been doing so far, are there any TED talks, podcasts or articles or books that you'd recommend that people could go and look up or have a read on?

Jenny McLaughlin: 29:51

So I think in terms of understanding different ways of thinking and I would definitely recommend Matthew sides rebel ideas. I'm just to understand why where the occurrences are in history where teams that don't have different ways of thinking baked into them have have have come a cropper, and the teams that have thrived have been those ones that are are embracing that diversity. I think there are a number of books in out there around inclusive design mismatches one, and I'm not going to remember the lady's name yet, but I can send you the link to it, which gives you the idea very easily between how a individual and an infrastructure are mismatched and how to sort of see that from from the design stage. And how to understand that I've created an accessibility bootcamp, which gives you more of an all round EDI expert kind of experience awakening. And we're currently looking at where that could be hosted. So you don't require me to come and deliver it that actually that we could embed that within something that could be easily accessed. We have created a inclusive height, health and safety checklist with the support of some other so maced. And some other contractors have supported us in terms of creating that, which is a useful benchmarking of where are you now? And where do you need to be in terms of vision setting within your workspaces and environments? And then what we're currently working on is a Accessibility Assessment Tool or maturity matrix around procurement and services. And I'm hopefully going to work with Amanda Kirby on looking at skills matching within that framework. So looking at how do you assess an environment and a task and an individual and understand where where are the areas of most risk? And where are the areas of most adaption that are required? So yeah, so that's where we're at. And, you know, any of those resources we can share, when in terms of podcasts, etc.

Mark McBride-Wright: 32:11

Well, you've done quite a lot of you've done quite a few talks, I noticed this year to keep yourself busy during lockdown. So even Faulconer, you did some work recently with the Association of project management, I believe.

Jenny McLaughlin: 32:22

Yeah, so I've done so I've done podcasts for APM, which is available on their website. I did one recently for ecitb. Which I think can be accessed from from their websites. And also, I have also done one for EIPA minutes all around similar themes, as I've spoken on in here, I guess going into different detail depending on the forum that I'm speaking at. But in terms of in terms of others, there aren't very many others at the moment are speaking specifically around how do we ensure that we can inclusively build, inclusively, maintain and inclusively operate? Most of the work around this subject is primarily looking at the end user and inclusive design. And I think, you know, understanding more about inclusive design and then filtering that into what you understand about CDM or any other engineering principle is the key. And there are there are a number of you know, accessible consultants out there. It's just changing their brains to stop talking about the end user.

Mark McBride-Wright: 33:38

The process the engineers involved, the people who are making like the proof. Yeah, there's bias that can be baked in through the process of arriving at the product or the service. For the end user. It's about getting the people involved along the way and the processes and the people along the way to be being inclusive and having that system. Well. The word captures all doesn't it systematic inclusion. So just I wanted to touch on the work that you're doing with a charity. You did. You did. You did a fly in I think it's called a flying for a charity and arrow mobility, the British flying charity, I remember seeing the pictures and thinking rather you than me. So I just wondered if you could tell us a bit more about about what they do, why it's so close to your heart. And their chance to encourage other listeners maybe to put their name forward.

Jenny McLaughlin: 34:34

Yeah, so. So air ability is a charity that believes that everybody should have the opportunity to experience flight and their CEO is in a wheelchair and actually has had a plane adapted so that he can still pilot it with the use of just one of his fingers. Wow. And so from that point principle they have a number of aircraft are adapted in different ways. So people with different requirements can still learn to fly aircraft. And I think their principle and their kind of tagline is, if you can achieve flight, what else can you achieve? You know, if somebody was to it quite often we speak to unfortunately people with disabilities as if either one well, you should be quite happy with whatever you load bow or standard, we've set you what we think you can do. And so they live in that space and don't try new things, don't try different things or challenge the world to allow them to try those different things. Or we call them inspiring, which, which is really horrible. Because why should they inspire us because they've overcome a challenge that we've put in front of them, we should do remove that challenge so they can go and do the things that we do without them having to inspire us because they've overcome it. And what I love about the charity is it's very much about that it's about looking at the individual and saying Come on, we think you're great come do this thing and seeing yourself the ability to do so much more than maybe society's you know, thinks you can and that's why it's so so dear to my heart. Obviously being in aviation myself so he you know, working for Heathrow and being the lead for the disability network when they approached me to say, Would I do the wing walk? So I've done too now? I was like, well I can't really say no, we can only so the first one we did during the first lockdown Yeah, it's it's so exhilarating the thrill the Pete the team that you know support you to to undertake the challenge are so professional and you don't at all feel unsafe at any point. I mean, it's obviously the exhilarating like going on a roller coaster the adrenaline once you're up in the air, you realise you're witnessing something that very few people get to witness I think there are less people who've winged walked than climbed Mount Everest Wow. That's the kind of that's kind of acclimate you get so the second time the first time you go up you you can't do the Loop The Loop that if you've done it the first time the second time you go out you can so this second time I have footage of me doing the the loop which is Yeah, you don't have enough time to be able to process the fact that you're the wrong way with the plane above you rather than below you. Yeah, it was it was absolutely nuts bitten. I'm so glad that say you know if anything else when I get to the end of my life, I can say I did Loop The Loop standing on top of an aircraft.

Mark McBride-Wright: 37:56

I'm all for a roller coaster doing a Loop The Loop maybe because it's the height thing or it's a machine no more. I'm not really an annual I have more control Am I am still at the beck and call or whoever's controlling the system. But yeah, I yeah, I didn't, I knew you did the wing walk. But I didn't realise you've done a loop loop that you done it again. And the second time involved, look. So I hope you raise more money that second time Roman smashed your target than the first.

Jenny McLaughlin: 38:27

I did. I did smash the target. I also dragged a few people along with me. And so there was a team from Heathrow that went the second time. So it was a it was it was actually really good team out I would recommend it if you if you need a team challenge to go go book yourself on the next day mobility. Yeah, we will challenge as a team.

Mark McBride-Wright: 38:48

I love it. I love it. I love it. That is that is good, good advice and raise some good money in the process for a great charity. Well, Jenny, I've really enjoyed them having a chat this morning. We've covered you know, diversity with covered, you know your history, what you've been doing what you're working on. Now, I think I really do think that with your voice, be part of the conversation and centering on your personal experience and bringing that to your job. And being an advocate for others. I really think the aerospace sectors got a lot to learn from your leadership in that area. And hopefully, we can pick up offline with some of the items that you mentioned that you're working on now. And hopefully there are maybe some ways that equal engineers can help more with with the work that you're doing. Maybe host some stuff for Cast the net wider says that more people are positively impacted by all the work you're doing. So thank you for your time today, and I hope you've you've enjoyed being part of it as well.

Jenny McLaughlin: 39:49

Absolutely, always happy to talk.

Mark McBride-Wright: 39:52

Thanks. You have been listening to the equal engineers podcast uncovering the diversity story behind leading engineers and those working with the profession championing change. If you've enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on your podcast platform of choice and get notified when a new episode goes live. Did you know that we also offer a full transcript on each of our podcast episodes, check out our website equal engineers.com explored our wider training and development programmes or recruitment events, recognition awards, and case studies for how we are shaping the future of engineering for now, thank you for listening. And please come back and join us on a future episode.