Mark McBride-Wright: 0:10

I am your host, Mark McBride-Wright, Founder and Managing Director of EqualEngineers, and I believe that every engineer has a story to tell. The EqualEngineers podcast uncovers the diversity story behind leading engineers and those working with the profession, championing change. Hear from leaders, academics, entrepreneurs, and agents of change, truly transforming the understanding of who engineers are and what engineers do. Simon Blake OBE joined MHFA England as chief executive in October 2018, leading the organisation to achieve its vision of normalising society's attitudes and behaviours around mental health through training one in 10 of the population in mental health skills and awareness. He is chair of the Dying Matters campaign based at hospices UK, and the support after suicide partnership based at the Samaritans. He is also a companion of the chartered Management Institute. In 2020, he was named as a global diversity leader and the 2021 Pride power list. He is a writer, campaigner and trainer and was awarded an OBE for services to the voluntary sector and young people in 2011. He enjoys running, equestrian eventing and his dog. Simon, how are you?

Simon Blake: 1:54

I'm very good, thank you, how are you?

Mark McBride-Wright: 1:56

I'm great, really, really delighted to finally get some time in your busy schedule to talk about what I think is something that's really really important not just for engineering, but any sector really to shine a light on, which is around the mental health off, its off its workforce for the positive or the negative. And, you know, just hear about some of the great work that MHFA England are doing, how people can can get involved. But I in my podcast, I specifically also like to get to know the person behind the story to uncover the diversity story of the individuals that are sharing their time with us. So we like to go back to the first section, look a bit about the history, look at the personality, and then come back to the present day forward looking with you know, what's what's what's happening in the future. So, with that in mind, I'd like to just take us back and find out a bit about about Simon Blake, you know, where did you grow up? What was the young Simon like?

Simon Blake: 2:57

I grew up in Cornwall, in North Cornwall by the sea in the year 1974. And what was the young Simon like? I guess I was adventurous. excitable, at times precocious. I was very, very outdoorsy. I loved being outdoors, I found school. Annoying, a little bit boring. And at times, I guess, didn't really understand what it was we were supposed to be doing. So Primary School was was amazing. He did lots of creative stuff and energetic stuff and learning in ways which really suited me Yeah. And the secondary school sort of 35 minutes on between learning of French and learning roads and reading books. And all it just didn't, it just didn't quite, quite suit me. And I guess then 16 to 18 got went to further education college and fell back in love with learning again. So yeah, outside school, I was very much about being outside wanted to always be with animals. And then my learning sort of journey, I guess I was was an interesting one that primary suited me and then that middle section, which may well I guess had been to do with with me, and who I was much more than it was about the experience of of what was happening in the school at the time.

Mark McBride-Wright: 4:24

Okay. Interesting. So it's very often people maybe fall out of love with things in their life, and then at some point later on in their journey, fall back in love with them. And so it it sounds like that might have been your relationship with education. And so what how would you describe your, your school days then and that journey into your work in life?

Simon Blake: 4:48

Yeah. So if I just start at the FE, so going to Fe College I think I learned by that point that there was an element of self directed learning, which I really like. I liked going wherever my brain. Yeah. Interesting and and that for me was very much in the the social side of life, the site sociology, the psychologies, social geography, human geography, sort of part of world and English and I think so I guess actually what was happening in school, I hadn't really thought about this until you just ask question was, I was being required to learn quite a lot of things that I didn't particularly like, or find that interesting. And it was, of course, before the internet, and so you didn't just sort of wander through things, but that's ready to structure, I think I obviously found a little bit more difficult than perhaps I realised, and then from, from further education onwards, really, it was accidental, I was the first person in my family to go to university, and I ended up at Cardiff University, because it has a good psychology course, because a friend was there, because I visited there. And so I could imagine what Cardiff looked like, you know, from, from being by in the fields and by the stream, and all of those sorts of things going into a city had felt, I think, a little bit intimidating, but found Cardiff, good fun, had a great time, and was supposed to be an educational psychologist, but fell in love, had an errant trip to the States. And of course, in the end, that all went wrong, as it was always going to. But I did then have the the good fortune to get a job as a sex educator, rather than back to be an educational psychologist, which was the plan. And that just led to a series of very interesting jobs. Which ultimately led me to where I am now, in terms of mental health.

Mark McBride-Wright: 6:50

Amazing, can you just tell us a bit more than about what those various roles have been, and the the sort of common thread that's gone through each of them?

Simon Blake: 7:00

Sure. So the first project was a sexual health project working with boys and young men. And so working in the south Wales Valleys where obviously there have been enormous change in terms of, of economic opportunities with the closing of the mines. And so really, even though it was a sexual health project, it was about masculinity, emotional intelligence, mental health, of which there was some conversations around sexually transmitted infections, sex, etc. I then became an expert because there weren't very many people doing that work. So got a role where I was training people in working with boys and young men around sexual health masculinity, then ran the Sex Education Forum, which is a consensus building organisation, which brought together religious institutions, education institutions, health institutions, and specialist organisations to try to build consensus about what we should be teaching how and where. And from there, then had a role which, which was slightly wider than that at the National Children's Bureau, where it was really about addressing personal social health education for all children, but had some specialist roles within that as well. So volatile substance abuse was a particular focus area. Drug Education, we had working with bereaved children, children with HIV, rural children. Wow. And within that, that environment, we were all the time trying to work out, how do we meet the needs of all children, young people and what they need for health, education development, but also how do you meet the needs of particular groups of children, whether that be children in residential care, children who are being fostered children from black and as time minority ethnic communities, and gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans children. So all the time trying to work out? What is it that everybody needs? And then what is it particular groups of children young people need? Then I worked at Brooke, the young people's sexual health charity. And again, that sort of sense of making sure that we're providing sexual health services that met the needs of everybody but also met the needs of particular groups of young people. But also then the relationship between our well being our mental health and our sexual choices was obviously, part of the education went to the National Union of Students from Brooke, where mental health well being liberation was a core part of of the student movement and of students before coming to Mental Health First Aid England three just over three years ago, and I guess running alongside that non executive trustee roles, the black health agency diversity role models, and latterly Stonewall And now with the support after suicide Partnership, which is supporting, ensuring support for those who've been bereaved by suicide, and the Dying Matters campaign, which is a campaign trying to create open, honest conversations around death and dying. And I'm also lucky enough to, to chair the International Advisory Board at headspace. So you have some really interesting roles as a non exec sort of trustee and advisor, running alongside that the work of Mental Health First Aid England.

Mark McBride-Wright: 10:32

So we've had people that I've spoken to people that have been interested in getting, you know, non exec roles. Is it something that your approach to then gonna apply for or be considered for? Once you get to a certain level? Or have you done some in your career, like proactive planning with those that you've joined? Formally applying? How does that work having that sort of concurrent sight to your career alongside your, your mainstream profession?

Simon Blake: 11:02

I think it's it varies. But certainly, I was advised very early on that it would make sense to actively apply for a role as a trustee of a charity. And so looked for those opportunities to, to secure roles. So you sort of get the combination that you're proactively looking and then people knowing that you're looking and then there are adverts and there are search agencies for some, there's, it's, there's non exec, other agencies, if you wanted to be a non executive in a private company or public company, associations, I think there's a number of ways in but if you interested in in roles in the charity, and social enterprise sector, the National Council for voluntary organisations, where would have information about that on it?

Mark McBride-Wright: 11:54

That is a very good resource that we can signpost to thank you for that. So you've you've that it's all quite heavy stuff then that you're that you're you're leading on the weight that you can be carrying, sometimes separate in from personal life and professional life, it must be quite a burden. Sometimes were the two sort of fusing together. What do you do then to to have that headspace for yourself? What pastimes Do you enjoy?

Simon Blake: 12:26

Just a go to come back. One step from that. I think the thing which is always interesting about working in social justice, or working with around areas of justice and equality, is that it's it is exactly as you say, driven by passion and compassion. And I think my sense of all of this is my aim is to have a balanced life, people will often talk about a work life balance. And it's probably a bit of a sort of a false reality, really, because you've got work and life. And I think sometimes when you work in this area, you've got the combination of the two. Now the challenge of that, of course, is to make sure that you don't wear being busy, sort of as a badge. And yes, that you do have to have that, that place and space for yourself. So my past times, I have a dog, a blue Staffordshire Terrier, who requires a lot of time and attention. It also have a horse and I do eventing, which also requires a lot of time and attention. But they also both require me to be present. Yes, it's no sort of in between. And it is really a space where I try if I'm out walking the dog not to take my phone with me or very, not to be on the phone and to be looking around and to be present. And then when I'm writing, obviously, you have no choice but to concentrate on exactly what you're doing at that time. And they're really important to me, and then I'm a reluctant runner. I do run and I sometimes enjoy it, but mostly I do it because it's good for me, it gives me the chance to just make sure that I'm outside getting fresh air and I live on Clapham Common so Oh, man is a really nice, nice place to live.

Mark McBride-Wright: 14:22

Lovely. Again, nice, very nice circuit that is, I like the idea of work life balance, but actually instead it's about living a balanced life. I did some I did the mental health firstly, the England instructor training course that I'd highly recommend to anyone listening to consider. And then within that one of my favourite bits was the guest speakers who came in. There was one in particular that I remember a cold chain offline, and they spoke about we live in such a connected world digitally. How can you disconnect from your digital life and even simple things like having a box at your front door to put your phone in? And so that you create some rules create some boundaries between having a healthy relationship or having a healthy relationship with, with technology. And I guess it's hard to do now the more interconnected we get a validated my training before the pandemic. So it's even harder to disconnect digitally when actually we have to use these devices to be connected for for our work.

Simon Blake: 15:28

Yeah, and I, at the beginning of the pandemic, we talked a lot about staying connected. And I think it only took a few weeks to realise that actually, we needed to concentrate as much on disconnecting as done connecting and for people working at home, or throughout the pandemic, simple things like making sure that you pack your computer away at the end of the day, rather than have it winking at you on the kitchen table, or I'd have a in the bedroom is really important, and particularly then at weekends and when to do it. So those those acts of moving things away, turning off notifications on our phone so that we only look at our phone when we want to see it rather than look at it every time something pings at us. And of course, if you've got Twitter and Facebook and Teams and your email and WhatsApp and your text messaging and the phone, you've got a huge amount that can just suddenly be be buzzing at you and our brains need the chance to rest. And if things are pinging at us all the time, we don't get that. So it is important to find ways to disconnect. And you know whether that's challenging ourselves not to look at phones for the first half an hour, when we get up or the last hour and a half before bed or leaving our phones downstairs. The challenge, of course, is that it's your camera. It's your alarm clock. And I think that is something which I, I increasingly find myself moving back to a position of actually, I'm going to get an alarm clock, yeah, I'm going to get a little camera in order to be able to take photos so that you're not relying on one device to do everything.

Mark McBride-Wright: 17:07

My son has become my alarm clock recently, he wakes up at 7am. His late goes from red to green, green, meaning you can make noise no and get up. And he shouts through the monitor Wakey wakey wakey. I know been practising better than having my phone in a different room on charge. So it's not, you know, just there. So think even its presence near you is like subconscious vacuum that sucks energy or wellbeing from you. So what have been some of the key experiences who have shaped who you are,

Simon Blake: 17:44

I guess the first and probably the most fundamental would be being growing up gay in the 70s and 80s. And that even before I had words for or a language to describe, it meant that there was definitely a sense of being slightly different. And I think what that did at various points was put you into the people who were in the wrong side of the playground race. And from that I learned that there are people there is inequalities. I mean, this is all adult language rather than what I was processing age seven. But yeah, there are people who would be bullied and there are people who would bully and there were people, that would be nice. And that actually there were never some sense of unfairness. So I think I grew up with that sense of unfairness. And that's definitely filtered through. We also had a special unit as it was called at our primary school, which was for children with Down syndrome. And part of our our education at school was also about understanding around discrimination, and around disability and disability discrimination. And that was where I then did my work experience, which then led to doing some voluntary work in the charity sector, which ultimately, if you piece together the different bits, there was something about having done some voluntary work as a young person. Yeah, I have done some font, which led me to then do volunteer work when I was a student, which led me to be able to say that I had something useful to offer when it came to applying for jobs Post University because I had a psychology degree which didn't lead you directly to a specific vocation. So that sort of sense of unfairness at an early age and what we learnt at school about discrimination definitely are things that have shaped me. And then ultimately, as you you certainly through the sort of 80s and 90s Yeah, that sense of your own difference then creates a greater empathy with others who who may not fit with in tight social norms, yeah. And obviously yeah, there's there's all sorts of progress in various ways at the moment, but my, I guess my heart and my mind was open to different to diversity. And that's certainly been incredibly grateful, really, really grateful for that, because it would have been very easy, I think, to have had a shut down mind. And when I look at the injustices that there are in the world now and things that I care deeply about, a lot of that is about empathy, and about having a sense of empathy and understanding of other people and their experiences. And, yeah, if you look around at the moment, that's certainly something that in some to do with a bit more of,

Mark McBride-Wright: 20:46

I always remember attending our diversity talk seven years ago now, and one of the speaker said something that stuck with me and I still use it today, talking about equality being like a pendulum swing. And actually, when you swing too far forward in one direction, the privilege majority feel like there's been too much, you know, growth for underrepresented groups. And so it swings back you get the backlash, you get the misconception that you know, there's an agenda here and I feel like we're in a backswing right now with certain communities with there haven't been too much equality and I'm using air quotes here, given out and and even on the LGBT strand, or the LGB strand in particular, you know, when you look through the 70s 80s 90s, naughties, 10s and the 20s, how much even that's gone up and down, and how much progress has been made, even in the last 15 years, let alone the 15 years prior to that, I do wonder if the generation now coming up, they are truly in a better place for, you know, the successes that stormo have had. And I feel like I guess being a gay man myself as well. I feel like I've been in that bridging generation as well with I remember being How old was I, I remember labour coming in, and New Labour and then seeing signs around section 28. Or it was called something different in Scotland. And just this, this just this national discussion happening, but not really making the connection that it was linked to who I innately knew I was the curiosity that I had. I came out in 2003. And then I started uni in 2005. And I remember starting in 2005, and the day I met my now husband or boyfriend at the time, Cherie Blair was celebrating the civil partnership reception for the civil partnership act coming out. No, when I did advanced, higher French at school, I remember learning about France having this thing called loot packs, and it was some sort of legal recognition that same sex couples could have. And I remember being at high school thinking, Oh, that's brilliant, I can speak French, I can move to France, I get a boyfriend I'll have like just settling for the fact that you can't get married you can even use the married where there'd be no legal recognition. So I have I for my pulse that I'm wave answer from I feel I've literally just been on the side of progress where I haven't had to lose any time in terms of the legal status of of how I live my life. And I certainly don't don't don't take that for granted. I think with the trans community just know we're seeing an enlightenment having happened but no are sort of pushed back happening at that intersection with gender and gender identity and for engineering in particular, interested get your take on this for engineering in particular, which is a male majority profession, still, we're we're still trying to, you know, attract more women cisgendered women into the profession, you know, how that plays out with with the trans community is it's a question we get asked a lot, I run another organisation called InterEngineering, and we've got a lot of trans members through that. And it's, you know, being a male, you know, cisgendered white male, trying to have a voice in that space. You know, do you have a voice in that space? Can you can you advocate? How have you been handling the situation recently with?

Simon Blake: 24:24

Well, I think it's really important, isn't it that all of us, our our allies are supportive or vocal use our platforms and our voices to support equality and I really subscribe to the view that none of us are free until all of us are and that includes the people who have experienced the most legal freedoms the most economic freedom, the most of everything. Yeah, power, the most privilege and, and so, yeah, making sure that we are speaking out because we know what happens when you don't do you can And you can't leave it only to people who are experiencing oppression to stand up against it because the energy the the that is required in order to do that. And so we always need, you know, I always think of with progressive being a bit like a snowplough, you know, enough pressure to be able to move it through. But I think we're always standing on the shoulders of the people that went before and I'm so I am just at the bit before you were. Yeah, I was involved in campaigning against the repeal that for the repeal of section 28. And for the equalising the age of consent, and, and I went to the party that celebrated when we had equalising the age of consent, and there were two people who were older men who were, who were dancing, and just say, we never thought we'd be legal, let alone, you know, have that equal and equal equality under the law. But of course, what you've now got is there's equality under the law in a range of different places for a number of people, but not everybody can realise that they you know, whether that's because of the home circumstance, or because of their school circumstances or because, you know, the reality is that culture hasn't caught up with with that legislation. But the challenge that we have got now is, as always happens to know that there is a moral panic about trans people. And that is a very loud minority. And the same fear stories that were said about gay men and about lesbians and about by people are being so about toilets and about safety with children and and violence. And of course, what that does is creates a backdrop against which some people will not then engaged as a very positions become polarised. And whilst I Yeah, absolutely, you know, we we cannot debate. This is not a debate in the way there's reported, and we mustn't dehumanise people. But one of the things which I think is really interesting is that you've often got people who are absolutely understand the issues from one perspective, and are very pro trans rights and people who are absolutely opposed to trans rights. And then you've got a whole group of people in the middle who don't know very much, understand very much and, and need to learn and to be supported to learn and to understand and to champion equality. And, and that's really important in all areas of progress, you know, and even whether that's around LGBT rights, whether that's around feminism, whether that's around racial equality, we've got to find ways as allies as supporters of equality to be able to have conversations which enable people to learn and to rethink and to that to re educate the I was having a conversation with somebody in my family the other day around people crossing the Channel. Yeah, yeah. The views were not ones, which I would subscribe to. But in the end, yeah, most they imagine you just imagine that you were in a situation where you thought that it was worth taking the risk of putting your children one under each arm and crossing the Channel because your your your choices where you were, and I'm not saying that they've changed their mind, but they have at least imagined themselves into a scenario where I don't believe that it's the offer of a mobile phone or the Yeah, fantasy of benefits, or whatever it is. And I think somehow, if you're expecting an asylum seeker to have that conversation, of course, they shouldn't do this for all of us. And that is why it's all of us need to be to be trying to change the dial.

Mark McBride-Wright: 29:13

I always say that to my clients where I'm we're supporting some employee resource groups, and they're, maybe they're the first people that are championing that change in their organisation, they're going to be up against that friction, that that interface of that snowplough pushing through. And really, it depends on how informed the leaders have been with making that way for them easier with paving the way we always draw. I love a good graph, a bell shaped curve 2060 20 rule, your trip set and organisation that are really positive, they'll do everything they can to support inclusion without, you know, give their discretionary effort and 20 trips that are naysayers. They'll try and pull everything down. They're already polarised set in their ways, and then the opportunity exists in that 60% and the middle now that 20 Split either side of that 60 curve isn't necessarily proportionately represented across an organisation, it might be disproportionate in terms of the hierarchy and the power. So really, we're getting in or getting individuals to map out where that sits in their organisation and in their personal lives, get some to think about right, where can I best apply my energies through my advocacy, and through my, my fight for social justice. And one of the ways we've been doing that is equal engineers with trying to get the male majority because we have, I think it's 86% of the engineering profession are male. So there's a there's a huge skew there in terms of our workforce that may have grown up with the themes that you're describing, you're involved with at the beginning around masculinity, mental health expectations of what it means to be a man, a match or take culture, and a workforce that's also familiar with safety, physical safety, we can ask for one mother. So we're just really keen in to hear more from you. And in your last three years, you've been chief executive at MHFA. England, what changes have you seen in general towards mental health?

Simon Blake: 31:15

So mental health is definitely something which people are wanting to talk about more and more, and I think we've seen, particularly through the pandemic that focus on well being we've seen more connectivity at work in communities, in friendship groups in in in neighbourhoods, and we are having more of a conversation. Yes, stigma still exists, lack of access to services that exist, there are some groups which are still likely to experience well, more cultural restrictions on talking and of course, men Yeah, is really one of those. That's not to say that men don't like talking and individual men don't talk, but actually the stereotypes of masculinity in that can be harder. So I think what we're seeing really is that that slow progress, which you often see, and the pandemic has given a long jump to really understand the about well being and mental health, there are still some parts of mental health mental illness, which people pretend to talk less about, we know that people might find it easier to talk about wellbeing than about depression, or they might find it easier to talk about depression than around schizophrenia, or they might not think is acceptable to talk about medication at work, even if they talk about feeling low or having depression. So I think we've got all sorts of contradictions and parts of this progress. And overall, there's a long way to go, we've probably just started scratching the surface. And, of course, one of those bits is a recognition that we all have mental health, we all have brain, all of us, therefore, have mental health, and that when we talk about mental health, we think about it from an asset based approach. It's how do we how do we resource and support ourselves to be able to do the best that we can how to manage the best that we can through, you know, as we muddle on, and muddle on through our lives, and we sometimes talk about mental health when we mean mental illness. I think being mindful of the language that we use, when we're talking about well being when we're talking about mental health when we talk about mental illness and really understand what we're talking about. That doesn't mean we have to be experts. But if you and I are talking about mental health, let's make sure we know what it is that we're that we are talking about. So I think we are seeing progress, but the reality is that there is still too much stigma. There are still too many times when people don't know how to get support. They are worried about talking about mental health because of the impact it might have on their job or on their role or within their friendship groups. And so, you know, we've got to keep on keep on having the conversation and D stigmatising because until we d stigmatise, we won't make the progress we need until we understand our own frame on the world. We won't have that empathy that we have around inequality around different perspectives. And we need to get better at understanding how we can support our own mental health. And that's about this, regardless of whether we have a clinical diagnosis or not. There are things that all of us can do to support our well being and our mental health.

Mark McBride-Wright: 34:41

Of course, you know, I'm a big believer in MH FP strategy to train up one in 10 of the UK adult population on mental health first aid. And our masculinity and engineering report from 2019 found that one in five engineers reported losing a work colleague to suicide and a similar number had had suicidal ideation themselves. So what can we change? What can we do to change this? And I'd be interested to hear more about your progress on that aspiration of one in 10.

Simon Blake: 35:16

So first off, we are moving, we're at one in 55 At the moment, and that's moving since the beginning of the pandemic, we've trained well over 200,000 people. So there are a number of people that you know, significant number of people who are trained and understand and able to have those non judgmental conversations and signposts to other forms of support. And then when you look at what can you do, you know, what we've seen in the construction industry is a real significant amount of energy and time and investment of resource in order to utilise conversations about mental health and use those getting support. So the lighthouse charity, and the helpline. And, and so I think the key bit is naming exactly as you've just done with you, as you said in the report, and is naming that there is a problem. And then galvanising support around the fact that that needs to change, and then working out what it is that does need to change and and then being in for the long haul, you know, this isn't going to be fixed with a three month project or a six month project. It's about cultures, within organisations. So how do I know if I came to work for you that you believe that my mental health is important? How do I know that if I ask for support that it's going to be available? How do I trust that it is going to be in my best interest and in my employer's best interest for us to think about my mental health as part of my overall performance in the organisation. And if I can build that trust, if I can create that culture, then of course, we can really start breaking down those stereotypes Breaking the Silence, which creates that challenge. And so what we know about construction and utilities companies and in financial services and in others is that what Mental Health First Aiders can do is create that cultural revolution, if you like, be champions for good mental health in the workplace. So it's goes beyond what the the first aid role is, it's Yeah, that's a signpost, it's the overall champions for for change. And, but that has leadership has to come from the top as well. It requires, you know, leadership from the top, it requires managers to be trained, it requires a level of awareness and cultural change, or mental health. First Aid has to be to be part of that.

Mark McBride-Wright: 37:53

When you go on the health and safety executives website, you can find guidance, and it's more than guidance as statutory requirements in terms of the number of physical first stages that you need within your organisation trained up relative to whatever size your business is. And do you see there being a need for that statutory requirement for Mental Health First Aid.

Simon Blake: 38:17

So we would like to have that statutory requirement, and we will campaign for that statue requirement. And we'll keep on doing so we've had lots of conversations with ministers. And I think at this stage, there isn't the appetite for that. But I believe absolutely, firmly that it is a case of when not if, and that when might be three years, five years, 10 years, but at some point that that will become a reality. And I'd like to think that that then becomes the minimum. Yeah, they actually will recognise that the more you do to create that culture in which our mental health and performance fuel each other, and the right support is in place. And the better that that will be. But any minimum number has to be in a culture, which takes mental health seriously. And you'll know from the physical health world, that actually physical safety world, you know that it was both the legislative change that drove some change, but also a genuine commitment to improving the safety. And that's what's so important that legislation is both a driver for change, but also a marker of the minimums and actually be looking at how we create that cultural change way beyond the legal change.

Mark McBride-Wright: 39:39

And that's why I think it'd be interesting to explore in a current company structure where they have HR reporting systems and HR metrics that they look against and likewise, our health and safety, physical safety, is there are there some metrics that are readily available now for example, where these reports and structures could be tweaked or a new vertical could be brought in, that is then reviewed frequently. Where you start to solve provide a framework to an organisation to track this, that therefore then drives the decision to invest in a bunch of MHFA training, for example.

Simon Blake: 40:19

Yeah, so I think we, the whole area around data, I think is really important and that we need to get better. And we know that some companies do have data. So if you look at Thames Water, for example, they know that they've got five times more in mental health incidents, or, gosh, what's the word? Can't think of the word anyway? Like reports? Yeah, for every one physical report, there are five mental health reports. Now they've been tracking that. And that's something that we're looking at, at the moment in terms of the data and how we might do that, because as you say, we really need people to understand how to, to make the case. Yeah, there's a, there's a an economic case and Deloitte, in their latest report showed that the cost of poor mental health to UK businesses between 42 and 45 billion pounds that was up 36,000,000,003 years before in 2016. And that was before the pandemic, the Centre for mental health is estimated that 10 million more people will need help as a direct result of the pandemic. And that's 8.5 million adults 1.5 million children and young people. So the economic case is incredibly clear. And the bit which I think is really important for businesses to to reflect on, isn't just from absenteeism is actually from presenteeism, it's from people not disconnecting, it's from people you're working when they should be on leave. And so that cost is perhaps not as obvious to quantify, because you can see people that it's actually the presenteeism and the leave ism, and always on that, that forms a significant part of that cost. So that's the economic cost. And then you've got the moral cost. Yeah, we've got the moral and human impact of not taking action of people feeling as though they need to be at work when they actually shouldn't be and people feeling as though they have to leave jobs, because they don't believe that they've got a choice and people feeling as though they can't connect into sources of support for fear of being judged and not getting the promotion. So there's such a compelling case for change. And the Deloitte report also showed that every pound invested that there is five pounds return. So yeah, that's, again, a really important business metric. But it is the combination of the economic case and the human and moral case, which feels incredibly important. Because ultimately, remember, work should be good for us. If we get it right. Work, Work is good for us and thinking about that, and then making sure we've got the systems and structures in place. So it is genuinely good for us is the awesome part.

Mark McBride-Wright: 43:14

And a good, very good. I'm excited to see the change that comes in Syria. You've spoken openly on social media recently about how important it is for us to talk about the process of dying. And when we are living through the loss of a loved one, as opposed to bottling up and I think one of your most recent external rules that you mentioned, help you're leading in this area. Can you tell us a bit more about why this is important?

Simon Blake: 43:44

Sure, I guess if you just go back a couple of steps into the work that I have had done. I tend to what my core belief is that when we talk about things, it is easier, and it is better that we know that stigma and shame doesn't help anybody. And stigma and shame tends to lead to poor outcomes and to poor health and poor wellbeing. And so, Death and Dying feels to me as though it's another one of those areas that some people find difficult to talk about. But by not talking about it. We know that people can experience all sorts of trauma and loss and grief and bereavement grief through the process of bereavement, which they then tried to face alone with the obvious impacts on well being and mental health. But I think for me, it was the experience of my brother dying and then my mum dying, in which I realised how challenging some people find it. You know that when my brother died, it was it was unexpected him As young people would rather, you disconnect or cross the street to metaphorically cross the street rather than talk about it, and that that wasn't because they're bad people, but simply because people didn't know how to do you know how to have the conversation because culture we've learned not to talk about it. And then we know, similarly, where people are bereaved by suicide, they often don't get the support and help that they need and there is increased risk amongst those people are bereaved by suicide, and of them dying by suicide themselves. And so we need to be really mindful about the support that we need and open in the cultures and, and create that sort of change so that we can help each other through what can be some of the most difficult times. And I learned a lot through the mom and my brother of people. Also, sharing wisdom and insight really helped. And that's it really, you know, that death is inevitable. Dying is inevitable, being bereaved is inevitable, managing that experiencing the loss and the grief, but also the joy that the memory of those people can bring is incredibly important. And as a culture, I think we can do much more to to experience that. So the Dying Matters campaign, just last week had a campaign called I remember, which is a sharing the memories of people that died in people's lives. And it was incredibly powerful to see those memories and those conversations and we've got Dying Matters, has got another Awareness Week next year, and there's a grief Awareness Week, which is towards the end of of the calendar year. And through all of that, it's about trying to normalise conversations a bit like we're talking about mental health. That's, you know, we know that people experience mental illness, poor mental health, we know that people experienced bereavement and grief, we know that people experience all sorts of things in their lives. And by talking about them and sharing them, then we utilise it pass on the wisdom and help people to manage those situations as best as they possibly can.

Mark McBride-Wright: 47:21

I love it a little bit, that sort of normalising the conversation. So is that when that lightning bolt in your life happens that it helps you sort of be prepared, be ready for it, but also getting the enjoyment out of what's you know, being cognizant of what time you might have left and how best to use it rather than skirting around the issue and never quite tackling it head on. It doesn't really help the individual and it doesn't help the family or friends around on.

Simon Blake: 47:50

One of the key points which palliative care doctor Dr. Catherine Mannix is really clear about is that we don't we so scared of saying the word death that the person who's dying may not feel able to say it and the people that love them, and around them don't feel able to see it. And therefore things that could be set that can help people through grief through the bereavement are just left on. What I learned with mums we had three or four months of knowing that she was dying was the actual content of the conversations didn't get any easier, because it's difficult, you know, when you are talking about those things, but the process of talking became easier if you take the deep breaths. Okay, we do this. And just because it isn't easy, doesn't mean it isn't powerful and incredibly important. Yeah.

Mark McBride-Wright: 48:40

Oh, absolutely. So you've mentioned a bit about construction as a sector that you've worked with. And I always view construction similar, if not a subset of engineering in terms of who we work with. What what do you think are some of the biggest challenges facing engineering from your perspective over the coming years?

Simon Blake: 49:01

Specifically in relation to mental health? Yes. So I guess it's like all sectors, isn't it? It's about facing up to and leaning into the cultural change, which is which is needed. And as you've said, you know, it is a male dominated industry. And so that can be without the evidence of data. Yeah. The starting what is the starting point for this conversation? Where is what's the momentum and the drive? And the reason that yeah, the construction sector started this was because there was evidence about the disproportionately high rates of suicide. It's, I guess the question really is, what is what is the burning platform? What is the thing that is going to kickstart a serious conversation So what is it that is going to drive people to believe that change is important. And you talked earlier about the statistics and the data from your report in relation to base suicide, death by suicide, but also suicidal thoughts and suicidal ideation. And therefore, it those are, it's that information, which I think creates the combinations creates the roots and pathways. From from my perspective, I think the key thing is that it doesn't have to be you don't have to have the perfect answer to start. And I think sometimes that people wait and think, have I got the silver bullet? We know there is no silver bullet? Have I got all the answers? Well, no, because we never start with all the answers. Have I got enough information to start? Whether that's training, whether it's a webinar or seminar, conversation within the business? Yes. Yeah. All of that information? Is there is the evidence that it drives positive workplace culture. Yes. So for me, it's really about saying, let's, let's start, let's build on what has already happened, because there will be some companies and some work this has already happened, what can we learn from that? How do we build on it? And how do we just take confidence that this is going to have have an impact in the workplace, on individuals on cultures, and also then on outcomes and outcomes as well? Very, very good.

Mark McBride-Wright: 51:40

Good advice there. And I think your team's what our case study could be a good one to look into further. So what are you looking forward to over the coming year?

Simon Blake: 51:52

Well, we've, we've had quite an extraordinary time of it, haven't we all of us in various ways, shapes or, or forms and and so from mental health first aid, England perspective, we have got some really exciting work lined up, we've got the campaign around people being able to take the whole selves to work, you know, we've got the the the numbers that we're moving towards them, we've got some new new things which are not yet at liberty to say what they are. But I think if you put that in against the backdrop, I think what I'm really excited about is that people are having these conversations. Yeah, that wasn't that long ago that there wouldn't have been podcasts like this. Yeah. In, in engineering. And, and so we are slowly, you know, moving forward, we are making sure that that conversation continues. And so for me, the most important bit is that we don't all revert to times gone by when, whenever something shifts or changes with the pandemic, that we keep on moving forward that we don't say, we want to get to where we were before that we say and it wasn't good enough before. So as we look to the future, we need to be better than we were previously. And I think that there's a critical mass of people and business leaders and, and organisations that are able to make that a reality. So that's my, that's my hope is that we're not going to just put up with where we were before, we're going to say, actually, we need to stretch we need to get better, and really shift workplace cultures. So that's, that's my increasing hope. And I think that there is enough momentum now behind your workplace mental health for that to be a reality. And, again, I think that that whole drive for change, whether it's within LGBT communities, whether it's around race, equality, whether that is around gender equality. Yep. My hope and is that we also will continue to make sure that we are addressing that because we know that oppression and inequality impacts negatively on mental health and, and so it's on all of us. Yeah, all the time to be thinking about inequalities and oppression as we do in workplace mental health as well.

Mark McBride-Wright: 54:21

I think that is a really good place to end there. Thank you so much, Simon. I've really enjoyed the chat we've had thank you so much for your time today.

Simon Blake: 54:31

Thanks very much.

Mark McBride-Wright: 54:37

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