Mark McBride-Wright: 0:10

I am your host, Mark McBride-Wright, Founder and Managing Director of EqualEngineers, and I believe that every engineer has a story to tell. The EqualEngineers podcast uncovers the diversity story behind leading engineers and those working with the profession, championing change. Hear from leaders, academics, entrepreneurs, and agents of change, truly transforming the understanding of who engineers are and what engineers do. Polly Williams is the Head of Diversity and Inclusion at the Royal Academy of Engineering, leading an ambitious programme to catalyse a step change in the diversity of the workforce, and prevalence of inclusive cultures across engineering industry. Polly has a background in developing and delivering equality, diversity and inclusion activities. At both the strategic and operational level Polly worked for six years for the Royal Society, the UK National Academy of Science, leading several high profile programmes, including the society's diversity programme, where she developed and implemented their first diversity strategy and programme of activity. Prior to this, Polly worked for the Equality Challenge Unit as a senior policy advisor, advising EDI practitioners in higher education. And she spent five years at the Equality and Human Rights commission as a specialist advisor, and then Policy Manager, advising individuals and employers on discrimination legislation and assessing compliance with the public sector equality duty. Polly is a trustee of the MS Society and Chair of their People Committee. Hi, Polly, how are you?

Polly Williams: 2:13

Hello, very well, thank you.

Mark McBride-Wright: 2:16

I'm really, really pleased that you've given up the time to to join us on this podcast today. We've done a lot of work together with EqualEngineers, the Royal Academy of Engineering, but I know that you've done a lot in the EDI space. And also you have your own personal diversity story to share. So I was really excited when you accepted my invitation to join us on this on this first season. So we're going to split the time in a couple of ways. Today, we're going to look back, look at who Polly is, look at your history, and then talk about some of the amazing work that you're leading on right now at the Academy and what impact that's already starting to have on our profession. So just thinking backwards, then go back in time. Tell us a bit about yourself. Where did you grew up? What was the young Polly like?

Polly Williams: 3:07

Well, so I've moved about a little bit, and my parents were teachers. So when they got new jobs here, and there, we would, we would move around. So I was actually born on the Isle of Wight on just off the south coast, that I moved to Shropshire when I was seven. And then I moved back down to the south coast when I was 16 to go to college, and then went up to the Midlands for university. So around and about, so I got used to making making new friends and adapting to new situations and experiences. It's a little bit scary when you're a child starting over. But I do think it helped with my, my independence and tenaciousness.

Mark McBride-Wright: 3:50

What was it like growing up on the Isle of Wight? That's that must be quite not many people get to experience such a remote location in relative terms. Did you have any fond memories of that period in your life?

Polly Williams: 4:01

Yeah, I remember, my parents had an allotment and we go to the allotment and pick gooseberries and sometimes go down to the beach and things like that. And I was very, very little, I left when I was seven. So there's snippets of things that I remember but actually went back to visit when I was about 30. And went and found my old house that I grew up in and they had a look around. I think more things came back kind of the local primary school and things like that. And it's just it's such a beautiful island with all the the you know, the whitecliff and the walk. Yes, it's it's lovely. It feels like another world and in some cases,

Mark McBride-Wright: 4:36

It does. It does. The reason I was asking there, we did some work for a client there. So it's, I've only ever been there twice, once when I was a student and we wanted to do a day trip. So we took the ferry across and then went all the way down to the needles down in the south. Yeah, yeah, it's so beautiful down there. And then we took a speedboat to get from the needles right the way back ground to coves. Then it was it was and then. So when I had to go back for a client we stayed in I think cows are split in East Coast and West Coast, the two sides of the city, it was this lovely little feat of engineering that I'd never ever used before, like our raft that goes across and back. And for the, for the cars. I can't remember the technical name of it. But it just yeah, it just felt you know, the the other side of the city was literally just across the water from you. But you had to wait 15-20 minutes to get across. Or if you wanted to walk, it was about a half hour walk right the way round yeah. It was yeah, had some nice times down there. And certainly people that work there on the site, lots of community. And I think that that sort of spirit of community and people coming back is what's so important about the work that we do as diversity inclusion professionals. So given that you moved around a few times, how would you describe your skill deeds, or your journey into the working world, you know, what happened to influence you in the decisions that you made and what you went on to decide to do?

Polly Williams: 6:09

Well, I think when, when I was growing up, I think I did a lot of drama, the drama club at school. At one point, I think I wanted to be like, you know, do drama and go, you know, theatre and things like that. And then I think when I was very was when I was very little at one point, I wanted to be an ice skater until I actually got onto an ice skating rink, and then my legs just went straight. Guys, maybe that wasn't where I was destined destined to be. I was like, history. And that kind of, you know, the talking about, talking at school, the kind of impact of what's happened in the past and to now. And then I studied law at A-levels which was a random subject that I picked that was that was interested in. And that just completely sparked my interest in in justice in human rights. And then I wanted to be a lawyer, but I didn't really know what kind of law. And that's kind of the start of thinking, moving away from the kind of creative side, I also did design and technology. So at one point, I was thinking, do I want to make furniture or something like that, or design gardens because I love the design, design elements of it. And I was one of only two girls in my woodworking class, basically my design technology class. But, and I really enjoyed that I loved that, that making making something with your hands and using getting to use the tools and things in the shop, I did have to have some help from my mom, because she's very good at that kind of thing. So she actually did help with some of my homework.

Mark McBride-Wright: 7:41

I've yet to get to that stage yet with my kids getting involved in homework project. I was gonna say design and tech at school that that is it's not something you hear about girls doing even though it is you know, it's still there's still quite a gender bias, I believe with that as a as a as a as a discipline. So how did you choose to do it that you know, did? Did your did? Were you inherently interested in it? And they're not held back from doing it? Or were there teachers that maybe tried to think, oh, maybe you should be doing home economics. Because that happened at my school, there was a huge gender bias with with design and technology and home economics, in terms of what you went on to

Polly Williams: 8:22

In part, I'm not sure whether this is still still do. the case. But it was because I want I wanted to do history, you then had to you had to pick something of history, geography, you then have to pick drum or art and then you have to pick something else. And once you pick one thing, it then kind of impacts the other options because you do two things at the same time. Yes, and I knew and I knew I didn't want to do art because I just wasn't particularly good and creative. I like the kind of more practical practical side of it. So that's part part of the reason and then I hadn't there was a great teacher ironically called Mr. Wood and who which was brilliant and he was was wonderful. And and then yeah, I got lots of help from my from my mom who also is very good at DIY. So it seems to make sense at the time, but I went on actually to do design at a level as well. And again, I was one of maybe two or three girls in the class choosing different things to design so most of the boys in the class were designing cars, so they they were sketching out car designs and things and I designed a swimming pool Wow. Which I then took the plans to an architect who said it was absolutely not achievable and couldn't be made because the weight of water because I think I had kind of a top pool that would rotate over a bottom pool or something you know, you know when you're a bit younger. That's how sounds really cool but absolutely engineering wise absolute not achievable.

Mark McBride-Wright: 9:53

That's concept engineering. You know, I'm sure some of the best creations in humanity haven't had the restriction of materials from the very beginning of the the idea of ideation. So who knows, maybe materials have come on since then.

Polly Williams: 10:09

It could be possible. And I did some work experience in an architect's firm as well. And when you and when you get to Sixth Form, lots of different places. So I, I went to the theatre, so I was behind the scenes and kind of a set design. And then I then I then went to the architect's office, I found my work week there if you're sitting in a corner of being there, so please, can you sketch this out or whatever, and there was no creativity or anything that didn't seem to be. And then there was an architect that was probably probably at the time, maybe mid to late 20s who said"Don't do it, don't do it as a career." So I was like, well, okay, so I was kind of put off by that. So that's why I ended up kind of going down all the law side of things rather than the practical side, because I couldn't really see what I wanted to do completely other, it's still something I enjoy now in terms of making things and just being a bit bit more practical.

Mark McBride-Wright: 11:06

I'm sure that creativity is very helpful when working with engineers. And engaging with people.

Polly Williams: 11:13

Yeah.

Mark McBride-Wright: 11:15

So you studied human rights law and went on later in your career to do a masters the Graduate Diploma in law. And I saw on LinkedIn that you worked at the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and subsequently at the Equality Challenge Unit. And just looking at the dates I saw this was around the time when the Equality Act 2010 came in, which became a statute in the UK. So can you just tell us a bit about what this period was like for you professionally, because working at the HRC and the ECU, when such a landmark piece of UK legislation was coming in? It must have been brought some real challenges and opportunities with it.

Polly Williams: 12:00

Yeah, I mean, it was it was professionally, it was a really exciting time, I was quite fortunate. So I was I had been working abroad, and I returned to the UK and I was in London, I was temping and I was looking for a job. And I was looking for kind of policy assistant roles research, assistant roles and just couldn't get anything I wasn't even getting interviews really. And then I, my dad actually sent me the job advert for the HRC or it was the he has the acronym was slightly the other way around when it first when it first started. And they were looking for advisors for their helpline. So we're looking for people with.. There were, previously three previous Commissions, there was Equal Opportunities Commission, Race Equality Commission and the Disability Rights Commission. Each of them had their own helpline to advise on disability rights or kind of race equality. But they were the new legislation was coming into the the new strands around religion or belief, sexual orientation, age, and the addition of human rights as an element that the HRC would now look after. So they wanted to expand the helpline. So they were recruiting kind of 50 new staff members to staff this helpline. So I applied and because I, I'd studied human rights law, and I'd worked abroad and working for several charities. So I got I got the position, but it was very relatively, very junior position on the helpline I was advising mainly individuals on their rights. So if they'd been if they felt they'd been discriminated in the workplace, my area was that was advising on the workplace, we had a different side of the team who were advising those that maybe had been discriminated against in the access of services. So whether that was a shop banking, or something like that, but my focus was on the workplace side of it. So they were calling up and asking for advice, kind of what to do. And, you know, what does the law actually say? So it was pre it wasn't legal advice, it was pre pre advice, in terms of this is what the steps might look like, this is the evidence that you need to gather this is, you know, talking talking it through. And we're also advising employers on best practice, you know, looking at age discrimination, and the ending of the default retirement age, actually, how did that impact employers? What did they need to start thinking about? That type of thing. And it was a massive learning curve. It was, you know, I'd been studying human rights law, but equality laws was a very different a new new area, and the new legislation was all was very new as well. Yeah. People still kind of feeling their way and wanting advice, wanting to find out you know about it. But it's hugely interesting. Being able to at some points quite challenging, quite difficult, speaking to people at their most vulnerable, really distressed looking for advice and support. And at the end of it, being able to give them a kind of a plan of action. This is what they might want to think about doing and signposting to them where they can get some free legal advice and things like that. So massively rewarding, rewarding at the same time. And then the other bit of interesting element as well was we were looking for kind of unusual or interesting points of law that can be tested through, through through case law. So flagging, flagging that to the legal policy team who would then you know, who had limited resources, but would then think actually, does this does this is this a new is this a, an area that needs more clarification or, and to push it that way? So I did about 18 months at helpline, and then I moved across, in actually into the policy team. So I worked on a number of different projects, including a project that was looking at the treatment of migrant workers in the meat and poultry packing industry. So quite a quite a focused inquiry. But that involves going out and about and interviewing migrant workers going into the factories, and then kind of meat packing meat packing factories and the kind of chicken. And just speaking to the treatment of workers, particularly from kind of non UK workers, so kind of EU workers often very vulnerable with their, you know, in terms of how they've been treated and not knowing what their rights were. And, yeah, so very, very interesting time to join the HRC, who, I joined by 2007 said it just literally had opened their doors, it wasn't in existence as an organisation before then before. And then the equality came, Equality Act 2010 came a couple of years later. So it was kind of very formative in terms of just learning a huge amount very, very quickly, and getting to advise people on the on their rights and help people.

Mark McBride-Wright: 16:45

I think if the ever created like an apprenticeship in diversity and inclusion, you know, it'll never be able to equal that experience in your form of yours, you know, professionally, that. You then went on to work at the Royal Society, spear head in the focus in diversity and inclusion. So did that experience that you had early on? You then went on? That's when you then did your your graduate diploma in law, I believe. And there are alongside your studies alongside working at the Royal Society. So what was your sort of motivations at that point in your career? And how did you find work in in the STEM sector in particular?

Polly Williams: 17:26

To stem was very, again, a kind of bit of a, you know, career path, or linear in it, I didn't, I didn't start off thinking I'm going to move into into the stem sector. But it was just the kind of path that that I followed. So I left the HRC and worked for a year for the Equality Challenge Unit, which is now a part of advanced HC and I was a Senior Policy Advisor there. So within focus on gender equality, and I was involved in that in a year in one of the pilots for Athena SWAN, so is expanding Athena SWAN to the arts and humanities and social sciences. So sitting alongside the Athena SWAN team, working very closely work closely with them, but my role was mainly to advise universities, you know, on gender equality, what the law says, kind of a promotion of gender equality through their through their work, obviously, gender equality and the representation of women in STEM such a huge, huge issue. And that was a year maternity contract. So I was looking around at the end of the maternity contract thinking what what do I want to do, and then the job at the Royal Society came up, so I applied and was lucky enough to get it so and you know, was familiar with STEM mainly with higher education sector, equality, human rights, and kind of so all lead to lead to that, so no, no plan, necessarily behind it just a series of fortuitous.

Mark McBride-Wright: 18:59

But really, you must have just been heads above the other candidates that imagine with that, with that background, common to the table myth. So how did you find then the work that you did that at the Royal Society?

Polly Williams: 19:11

Very, very interesting, and I think, coming coming in, because also it covers all areas of STEM, but with a large kind of focus on what in academia and higher education side of it, but also a little bit a little bit, working with industry. It's kind of that point of kind of sitting between government, industry and academia and that kind of convening, you know, huge convening powers or our society. So I think finding, finding yourself working for an organisation where you invite people in you you're wanting to talk about, you know, what can we do to advance this particular issue and people turning up and coming along because they really want to engage and they really want to hear it's a very fortunate position to be in to have that convening power. But yeah, I absolutely loved my time working for the Royal Society. I learned again, blood huge difference, huge amounts, I think, for me coming in, and then just understanding the different pathways and barriers along those pathway pathways, which looks different for biology, to physics to engineering, and just understanding those nuances, it's not just stem through that all the, all the different pathways and barriers that are the same. So that was a learning curve as well. And then I got to be involved in some incredibly interesting projects producing animation and guidance around unconscious bias. Then we did a brilliant project, which has a refresh of Autoline licence has a project called "parent carers scientist". And so it was parents and carers who are who are scientists talking about, you know, their pathways, their lives, their experiences, trying to break down those kind of assumptions that you can't be, necessarily what's that it's very difficult to have that be a parent be a carer and, and have a, you know, a good work life balance, amazing set of about 100 stories, that we that we showcase them from all different backgrounds, people who come into a scientific career quite late, we had a, one of the fellows of the Royal Society was previously a teacher and then moved into to research and then became a fellow so, you know, career change in their kind of 40s. And then, at the pinnacle, you know, getting the pinnacle recognition of becoming a Fellow of the Royal Society. So such a huge diversity of stories is a real privilege to be to be involved and help and to help show those stories. And we still still kept getting requests for the booklet from universities, saying "please, please, can you send us a copy because we love sharing sharing it to our, to our undergraduates? And, you know, having it around?"

Mark McBride-Wright: 21:54

So yeah, I think I remember being given a copy that actually, I think I've got a copy somewhere in my, in my office, and the thing is, we resources like that they're timeless, almost, you know, yeah. Well, one would hope that they become non relevant because we advance and people don't need the sort of role models to showcase that they can be, but they do stand the test of time. So it's, it's, it's great when an output like that is happened, it then sticks. And I think some of the animation that you lead on as well has become sort of the thing that is used on unconscious bias training, for example, I've had the the video that we use in EqualEngineers in our training is actually the the video that I believe you, right? Yes, yes, you lead on, which I only made the connection against in do my research for this podcast. So thank you for that brilliant resource.

Polly Williams: 22:52

No, no, it was one of outer friends, who is very famous scientist was involved in developing the guidance, she's works in kind of the area of neuroscience. And particularly, I think our particular speciality is around children with autism. And, but yes, she led on the development of that guidance with in and then the second bit is with actually with her husband, Chris Breath. So the content was so strong and so rich, it was just, you know, turning that into a video or an animation was relatively, relatively easy.

Mark McBride-Wright: 23:34

I think having outputs like that, that can be slotted in to a wider context, it's so much more accessible, usable, immersive, you know, having the audio the visual, you can watch it again, again, the three minutes, I always say to someone who's wanting to do unconscious bias, I think it is enough to just do a deep do a little dive into it, but it doesn't then need to take up a two hour session, you know, and I think the video that that you produced, it just gives enough of a taster to make the point. And, you know, really goes into those differences between male voices and female voices, for example, and, and how people respond to them. Yeah. Do you do you do? Have you heard of any recent examples where you know that we've had more evidence, let's say in terms of how that's affecting the design of systems?

Polly Williams: 24:29

Well, it was that was a really interesting element, actually. Because there is that line in the animation where the voiceover says, If I was a man, you'd be more likely to be listening to me right now. And that was based on on evidence on research that shows that people do listen and to pay attention, pay attention to a man's voice over a woman's voice and there's some of the evidences from from the research around the response to say fire safety messages and naming of hurricanes that after after a man's name or woman's name. And so we had a bit of a conversation actually about whether we wanted to as a result, should we should we have a voiceover as a man, but there was a no, we want the voiceover to be a woman, but to acknowledge that that point had come come through the research. So yeah, it's a vote that that kind of resources have been used, you know, multiple times, deliberately, you know, for the community open source, we didn't want to kind of keep it behind a paywall or anything like that. And we would use it internally every one of our selection committees would, if they had you know, we'd be set the video in advance to have a look but there always be a moment on the agenda just to pause and say, Okay, have a think we'll talk you know, where the meeting is to come where, haven't you choosing awardees or who to give a grant to let's take a moment and just think around biases our own biases unconscious bias, and you know, just to have that moment that's there in the agenda so it's very easy just to get swept away with okay this is what we need to do now and this is you know, we've only got an hour Yeah. Just the stopping and taking the time to not let that kind of run run your biases and the time just kind of run over yeah went away with you.

Mark McBride-Wright: 26:16

Absolutely. No, I think it's it's it's good practice that should be baked into every process where we're group a group is needed awkward a group would be better to make that decision. It's I've certainly well even over the last few years I've started getting invited to do judges for things judging and all that it's it's see it be part more of the process. So yeah, no, it's it's important so just looking at we've we've discussed a bit about professionally what you've been doing and what you did in the past to get to where you're at but I haven't asked you about what pastimes you enjoy. What you what what keeps you busy now?

Polly Williams: 27:01

I live in London so getting out of London and naturally I love spending time in the countryside go for walks and hikes whether that's in the UK I've got some family in Wales so we go there a few times and stay stay with them and say you know do some go out go up the mountains and you just really restorative just being able to look around and you know huddling people unless you've got one of the you know the history going up Snowden were crammed with people trying to get the top but then you can totally get away from from it all and and just you know be be be with nature and yeah going going for walks and hikes so that's that's something if not every weekend just trying trying to take take that time to get out and about I probably describe myself as a bit of an occasional runner now I used to do a lot more running but I've sometimes I go for periods when I don't do as much and then I kind of go back again and I'm kind of really into it so other moments not not so much the walking and hiking a bit more and then a level crime drama.

Mark McBride-Wright: 28:14

Oh right okay

Polly Williams: 28:18

I love you know that the kind of Shetland I'm watching the series Shetland very moment which is again what are not again but it's a it's based obviously in the in the Shetland Islands but it's you know all the all the murder and mystery that you might expect amazing scenery and just yeah.

Mark McBride-Wright: 28:35

Do you... are you like ITV? You know four part drama across the week or are you sort of Netflix watch as much as you can offer a new season of a new crime drama...?

Unknown: 28:52

Both very recently got a subscription to Disney, but free like, I got six months free. So at the moment I'm completely blitzing everything Disney related. So I've been watching Disney movies and also watching all the Marvel the Marvel stuff on that and then there was a great great series with Selena Gomez "Only murders in the building' which was again a crime drama based in New York. Which is really, I really enjoyed.

Mark McBride-Wright: 29:25

Yeah, my husband and I we watched the programme called Love Victor on and it's on Disney those two seasons it's a bit teenage you know, it's for for younger teens, but it follows a young boy through high school, discover any sexuality and then coming out and being accepted and it just you know, if something like that had been on 20 years ago, 20 odd years ago when I when I came out, you know, it just it it would have been revolutionary. So to see big companies like Disney embrace that side of inclusion and then. But then also, it percolate through to what the actually do in the business to consumer side of things. And seeing that reflected. It's good. So that that's another one you could potentially consider"Love Victor", like, quite the opposite to claim drama, though. So my, maybe it will be a bit lower in the, in the picking order. So I think I remember seeing a photo of you recently, actually, you must have been on one of your hikes. And I believe that was the very touching blog that you wrote about living with multiple sclerosis, and your you're also a trustee for the MS Society. I just wondered if you could tell us a bit more about the work of the society, you know, what you do, and, and any insights into into living with MS that, you know, people who don't can then understand what it's like?

Polly Williams: 30:58

Yeah, no, so yeah, that was me up a mountain, that picture for the for the blog. So I was talking about my experience of being diagnosed, but also of telling people, which many people have been diagnosed with MS, you have to go through that journey, but of telling their close family and friends and then speaking about it more widely, and then potentially, with, you know, confiding or speaking to that work and technique, telling your employer or speaking to your, your line manager, so kind of reflecting on, on that experience. But um, so the MS Society, I became a trustee about two years ago. And in part because I was had been diagnosed with MS. And I'd been sitting in the hospital waiting rooms waiting to go in and have an fMRI or waiting around and have some tests and not really knowing anything about it. No, no idea what the condition involved. And many of the stories, many of the experiences that you can, you can see are from people who've had, you know, much later in life, so their MS has progressed, or they have, or they have a more of a progressive form of Ms. But the MS Society had really useful resources, really useful information and guidance that was in the office hospital, waiting themselves picking up and reading it, but then also going online. And one of their resources that I drew from particularly was how to tell your family and friends. Because it is, you know, it's something that people aren't sure how to respond to, you need to, you know, in terms of picking the right moments, you know, also thinking about, do you want to tell someone? What if they personal information, so where, how much do you want to share when, except for. So I wanted to support support the MS Society, and I've done some fundraising for them. But then I saw that the opportunity to become a trustee came up. And I'm working in diversity and inclusion. And I'm always looking out for and spotting, you know, good, good recruitment campaigns, and the MS Society, we're actively looking for a diverse range of experiences, particularly those who had been diagnosed. And I would never, not necessarily put myself as in the young category, but I'm younger than the trustee was, at the time. At the time I was in my in my 30s. So they were they were calling for people to to, you know, to apply to become a trustee who were from diverse backgrounds. And they also explicitly said, you don't need experience of being a trustee before we will, we will support you, we will give you a buddy, we will help help you develop into the role. So that gave me confidence that I wouldn't apply and just be dismissed because I've never been before. And I think for some charities, you know, they, they're there. It's not as welcoming to to apply, because you think, oh, and it was a very rigorous, you know, it's like applying for a job, it's very rigorous process, I had to give a presentation on the future strategy of the MS Society, go through a rigorous interview, and then, you know, competency based interview and then apply and then be put forward to the membership to see if I would be voted in as a trustee. And so at the time, it's still the case, but new trustees are elected by the membership. So it's about six month process, and I finally got through, and I'm really pleased. And there was several of us at the time that had been that had been elected as a trustee, including another, another woman who was also younger and younger than me in early 20s. So really getting that that experience that breadth of experience because the MS. Society is there to support and serve the whole ms community, not just supportive of it. So make sure that the trustee board board also has that diversity of voices and experiences. And it's really important particularly for charity. teas that are supporting individuals with a particular condition. Those people with those that lived experience are on the board to make sure those voices and perspectives are there. So as a first time trustee role, I've again, a huge learning curve led to massive amounts, but they've been supported throughout, by the existing trustees and by and by the staff at the MS Society as well who've been absolutely brilliant. Yeah, great opportunity, and really pleased to be able to kind of support the community in one way as a as a volunteer, Trustee volunteer,

Mark McBride-Wright: 35:34

it sounds like such a great way to like wait, when something is rooted in how you've experienced the world, how you experience the world, it just adds that extra layer, it's something you can apply your passion to as well, because it you know, it's even more personal innately based on on what it is I like your analogy with the regard to the potential stigma or the coming out, it's not something that you see on the surface, it's not something that you have to choose to share that information if you want to. And then being constantly aware of how people may receive that information. What sort of curiosity? Is this about to spark? Is the person going to behave differently around me, I may now going to be known as the label that comes with what I've shared, rather than me being me. And so how have you felt since since being more open and since joining the society as a trustee?

Polly Williams: 36:37

I'm now, I'm more confident in talking about both talking about MS. But also my experience? Because Ms. Everyone's MS is very different. Now many invisible symptoms. So that can be anything from kind of fatigue, to feeling dizzy, having pain, kind of tingling, forgetting things. Although I do think sometimes I'm like, am I forgetting something because it's related to MS or just because I'm getting older, I don't know. It's such a huge range. And there are individuals that obviously have problems and difficulties with walking bladder or bowel problems and or in a wheelchair, but the range is so vast. And so when you have invisible symptoms that you're that aren't necessarily seen on the surface, and maybe you start a new job or you you meet new friends or you're getting dating the decision over toilet air that but I've grown I've been growing more confident in talking about it and talking about my my symptoms, but also just more about Ms. More, more generally, in terms of the you know, the impact the community that the MSI to just great, great work funding funding research to stop Ms. Campaigning for everyone's rights, and particularly around access to benefits for those who really need that support. At home, you know, in the workplace. So it's it's something I'm I'm very passionate about. And I want to make sure that I'm supporting the wider community as best I can. I've benefited from the support and advice to date and our public now continue continue to do so. But it is yeah, it's a lot when I started at the road, the Royal Academy, I'd been open previously in my old my work, but just with select colleagues and family and friends, obviously, but then choosing to then be more open on a much wider basis is quite big, quite a big step. Sometimes. I held them i with a couple of other colleagues, we held a seminar like a lunchtime seminar or on becoming a trustee. And we will talk our experiences of why we're a trustee for different charities and encouraging, encouraging staff and colleagues if they were interested, and particularly talk talking about that the importance of this diversity of important voices and perspectives that strengthen trustee boards because they are there to is that oversight but also to challenge and to bring rigour and make sure charity is delivering it to its charitable aims. So you can't have everyone from the same background. Same, you know, all that all of that. So we're in particularly those younger, younger people. Because many, you know, the average age I think have a trustee board or trustee members the 50s 60s. So and the many, many trustee boards out there many charities crying, you know, cry out really looking and really wanting to apply and to encourage younger younger people to consider becoming a trustee and some of them have roles where you can observe and kind of get to know how it works. So yeah, so that was at work and just kind of me talking about my experiences and it's always a little bit nerve wracking.

Mark McBride-Wright: 39:46

So that was in your so in your current role as head of DNI at the Royal Academy of Engineering. That was your coming out story to the to the academy. Can you tell us how the academy is supporting provements on equality, diversity and inclusion in engineering?

Polly Williams: 40:04

Yes. So our goal is that the that we have a world leading and kind of truly diverse and inclusive engineering workforce here in the UK. And so the academy we are, we're a charity will also have fellowship, and also national national Academy, we we, we are working for and supporting the whole of the engineering profession and engineering, again, is kind of, for me a new area to move into, I've learned a huge amount about the the diversity of roles and sectors and different types of engineering, which has been fascinating.

Mark McBride-Wright: 40:44

There are a lot.

Polly Williams: 40:46

There are a lot, and many, many organisations and many, many different kind of partners and stakeholders across the engineering profession. So just getting getting up to speed with some of the acronyms took me a little bit at the beginning. So where we work, we can't work in isolation. So we work with with other organisations with partners, and that includes engineering, engineering, employers, professional engineering institutions, to both boost the numbers, and but also the diversity of those entering and staying in engineering careers. And to really ensure and kind of promote an inclusive working culture in engineering. So with my team, my wonderful talented team, we run a number of programmes and activities, such as our graduate engineering engagement programme, which supports undergraduate students from black minority ethnic backgrounds, and lower socioeconomic backgrounds and women to move into engineering careers. So we're, we're looking at that kind of pipeline and end to end. But also working with engineering employers themselves to really look at their practices, behaviours, and their culture. So those moving into engineering are, you know, working in inclusive cultures, and we know that diverse teams in working in inclusive cultures have better, better outputs are stronger, more effective, more profitable. So there's loads of research and data that shows that, and it's the kind of practical How do you go about that on the, on the ground, looking at your recruitment practices, the retention of your staff, your progression of, of talented, talented individuals. So we have resources and toolkits and different programmes targeted at different elements and a number of new and exciting programmes that we're launching in the next year, as well.

Mark McBride-Wright: 42:39

So with from your work then with with employers and with students, any what would you say to anyone out there who's questioning whether a career in engineering is for them?

Polly Williams: 42:51

I'd say that engineers have, they pay a hugely important role. And and every day I learn more and more about how important that role is engineerings. All around us, you know, the response to COVID, and the manufacturing billions of doses of vaccine, you know, the current cop 26, and tackling netzero and tackling carbon emissions. But even thinking around just everything around us, our roads, our building sustainable farming techniques, are engineers at the heart of that supporting those solutions and helping to make the world a better place, if that's not to try it. But it's also a really interesting and really creative and rewarding profession. So we surveyed around 7000 engineers a few a few years ago. And you know, the there is the low number of women in engineering is a stat that we're trying to change. But the 80% of the women who responded to the survey, so they would recommend it as a great career means family and friends. So when engineers who are in engineering have higher than average earnings higher than average levels of job satisfaction and other jobs. So it's a highly, highly rewarding, creative profession that has massive impact on the world, the world that we live in the world around us. I'd say this and it's the the new areas around robotics and AI and the response to climate change. There's some really exciting new areas developing but the future generation we want to be involved in, in helping to create those relations.

Mark McBride-Wright: 44:32

That point there on higher than average earnings is an interesting one. I I almost wonder if it's something that some parents carers, guardians don't necessarily understand. And so when they're very influential on their children or their teenagers and what decisions they're making, do they consider engineering as a as a viable option? Or do they try and push their students don't push their kids During during a certain route like dentistry, law medicine, I do wonder if we're still in competition with with with those disciplines with the misinformation or the misunderstanding of for engineers can do. And I guess that's why why big themes like the This is engineering campaign are really really important. Can you tell us a bit about that campaign and what the Academy's been doing?

Polly Williams: 45:27

So that then so this is engineering is a perceptions change can campaign so it is designed to, to change perceptions, particularly of young people are both engineers, and engineering. So when you google an image of an engineer, you tend to have someone in a hardhat be a white man, on on a site somewhere, but actually, the the engineering roles themselves are incredibly diverse, we've got role models as part of our campaign that are working on things like sustainable farming, but in health care, in working for a sauce, you know, work or doing side of that. Working on, on, you know, a whole whole range of different really, really interesting, different types of engineering in different roles. And not all of those, you know, this huge number are not office based, but they're, they're not the hard hats. Yes, necessarily out on on a site, though, that there is there, when you're thinking of things like in, you know, the new Elizabeth line, you know, the HS two and things like that. So, there's a huge variety and diversity of roles. So this engineering is showing that diversity of roles, but also diversity of, of engineers, engineers, from different backgrounds, engineers with come into the engineering, perhaps through a different route from coming in technical roots, or coming later in life. And really exciting young people with the, with the with the thought of a career in engineering,

Mark McBride-Wright: 46:58

It's really, really great to have all these resources available that the academy engineering are are leading on putting out there for either engineering professionals to use internally or for teachers, careers, advisors, and educators to pick up and then use with their, their, you know, the people that they inform people that they support. So what what do you think, are some of the biggest challenges facing engineering over the coming years?

Polly Williams: 47:31

So I think it continues to be what are well known challenges, but it will can continue to be a challenge is that diversity of the of the engineering workforce, we need more engineers, the UK needs more, more engineers, but we also need to improve the diversity of engineers. And, you know, we, there's all the research around, you know, strong, you know, better outcomes, diverse team, diverse teams producing better outcomes, we're going to have very, you know, very complex challenges of the world, you know, we have, we're facing around around climate change around the world, the world that we live in, and where there is complexity, you need that diversity of perspectives to to really bring, you know, to strengthen the solution that you're developing. So as we become more complex, as well, engineering, systems thinking, and stepping back and looking at the whole system, is a real is, is the end what engineering can can bring to, to bring to these bring to these challenges. And as we, you know, as we're in the UK, as we're trying to tackle these and trying to think, you know, develop solutions in all kinds of different areas, that diversity of the professional become ever, ever so more unfortunate and acute. So that's, you know, a real, real challenge, a real challenge there.

Mark McBride-Wright: 48:51

And therefore, with that, then you've probably answered this question, what are some of the opportunities for the profession because where there's a challenge, there is an opportunity. So what do you think are some of the main opportunities for engineers now and engineers of the future?

Polly Williams: 49:07

So opportunities, where the where there's complex challenges, there's creativity, there's, there's innovation, there's, there's the diversity and breadth of things, you can get involved in it and do I think we're much better now, with this, still more to do, but we're much better now at talking about that, that that range of careers of different things you can get involved in, it doesn't always have to look like working for a big company, you there's so many amazing, small and medium sized enterprises, they're doing really creative, interesting work that you know, would would value you know, value engineers and Value Engineering. And so the the opportunities and the growth in in different industries that are responding to these challenges. I think that's very exciting. And if I was to go back to to high school and think about what I wanted to do now you know, studying design and technology, then I think the the, the role models and the the projects that you can get involved with. And if I saw something like this is engineering, I would definitely be inspired to consider engineering as a as a career and it kind of slightly annoying, but that wasn't around at the time.

Mark McBride-Wright: 50:21

Wow, you know that it's never too late as it is, it is never too late. It's never too late. So you never know you might you might be but I think your skills and what you've honed in on, you're in such a good place to help lead our profession forward with the diversification that we really need. So I just Yeah, I just want to say thank you for your time today. Thank you for sharing your experience allowing our listeners to get to know a bit about you flagging up some of the resources that are available. We'll include links to those in the transcript for of the podcast for signposting people. And yeah, we actually have some podcasts coming up with the head of the chief executive of the Design and Technology Association, Tony Ryan. So there seems to be a theme of design and tech common through them the series that we're doing here, so I will put some put some questions to him on on design and tech and the future future off the subject. But yeah, thank you so much, Polly.

Polly Williams: 51:30

Thank you for having me, it was a very interesting, very interesting talk.

Mark McBride-Wright: 51:33

Thanks. You have been listening to the EqualEngineers podcast, uncovering the diversity story behind leading engineers and those working with the profession championing change. If you've enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on your podcast platform of choice and get notified when a new episode goes live. Did you know that we also offer a full transcript on each of our podcast episodes, check out our website equalengineers.com explored are wider training and development programmes or recruitment events, recognition awards, and case studies for how we are shaping the future of engineering for now, thank you for listening, and please come back and join us on a future episode.